Mixed-Race Parenting: Insights with Dr. Jenn Noble

In this thought-provoking episode, Shawna sits down with Dr. Jenn Noble, psychologist, educator, and advocate for mixed-race families, to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities in parenting mixed-race children. Together, they explore:

• The nuances of mixed-race identity and how it shapes a child’s experience.
• Why starting conversations about race with children isn’t as daunting as it seems.
• How parents’ own experiences can influence their approach to raising mixed-race kids.
• Practical strategies to help children embrace their full identity while navigating societal complexities.

Dr. Jenn shares powerful insights on meeting children where they are, supporting their growth, and how race and identity education can start with simple, age-appropriate concepts like melanin. This episode is packed with actionable advice for parents and thought-provoking stories for listeners of all backgrounds.

Follow Dr. Jenn on Instagram: @drjennpsych and learn more about her work at Free to Be Collective.

Stuff to check out from mentions in the episode:

• Unwrapping the Gift of Dialogue: Race Talk with Meredith and Cindy
• Redress and Reparations for Japanese American Incarceration
• Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans

Want to be a guest or know someone who should join us? Click this link to complete the guest interest form.

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If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

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Transcript

Introduction  00:06

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:21

Hey everybody. Welcome to today's episode. I am thrilled to introduce our guest, Dr Jennifer noble, also known as Dr Jenn. She's a licensed psychologist, a passionate advocate for the mixed race and multiracial community, and the founder of the mixed life Academy, which is an incredible online community for parents raising mixed race kids with over 15 years of experience teaching psychology at the collegiate level and running her private practice in Los Angeles, Dr Jenn works with teens, their parents and women of color, helping them navigate identity, resilience and belonging. Today we're diving into a topic that's deeply personal and professionally significant for Dr Jenn. We're going to be talking about how the world perceives those who are racially, ethnically and culturally ambiguous, how those individuals see themselves, and how family dynamics and upbringing shape these experiences. Dr Jenn's work as a coach, community organizer and advocate, makes her the perfect voice for this conversation, and I know you're going to walk away feeling seen, informed and connected. So I am so excited to have this conversation. Let's get into it. You.

Shawna  01:45

Music, Hi, Dr, Jenn, I am so glad that you are on the show with me. I've been waiting for this you and I have gotten to talk a couple of times, and I think that you're fascinating and full of lots of great advice. You're a source and a wealth of information, so I am certain that the listeners are really going to get a lot out of this. Thank you for joining me today.

02:06

Thanks for having me. I'm excited about it. Thank

Shawna  02:09

you. I'm glad. I would love for folks just off the bat to understand what it means to be a person that works with parents of mixed kids. So I wonder for you, what makes this unique, and what's something that people could really stand to understand about what you do for folks?

02:30

You know? I mean, it's what makes it unique is that I think, in a way, I'm not necessarily giving cookie cutter parenting advice, which I know people can find everywhere. I think what I'm trying to do is address a very unique experience that a mixed race child has. And a lot of parents either don't realize how rich the experience is, don't realize how to address it, or if they do think they've addressed it. They realize, Oh my gosh, I really haven't gone as much into depth as I as I could have. So to me, it's more about educating a parent on what is the experience your kid is going to have in the world, and how can you better understand that experience, but also then meet your kid where they are, so that you can help them navigate that experience. Yeah,

Shawna  03:25

I really appreciate this, because one of the things that I talk about is the fact that being a person who's racially ambiguous or who is mixed race automatically means a different experience. And what's even more complex about it is it's not like there's just a bucket, like, oh, okay, you're mixed. So this is your experience, because there's so many complexities even within that. And I'm the parent of mixed race kids, and each of them identifies differently, honestly, right? And it wasn't until much later, actually, until I started doing the work that I do, that I even thought to ask them, actually, how do you identify exactly? And so knowing the complexity even between my own two children, let alone all children who happen to be identifying as mixed race,

04:11

yeah, yeah. And that's super common. I mean, again, that's something that parents don't often even consider, is that wait my 234, children could identify in 234, different ways, and you have some famous celebrity examples of that, like Rashida Jones, is an actress, and she talks often about her and her sisters very different experiences. And I'm not sure if they've talked, I'll be fair and say I don't know if that they've specifically talked about how they identify, but definitely their own different experiences, and how it influences either how they explain themselves to other people, how they view their own like journey through the world. And she's talked often about how she can see my experience was not that of my sisters, like my life, people just see me. Differently. And, you know, again, parents don't think that, number one, that'll happen, and number two, that they can talk about it, and number three, that they could help their children navigate all of that. Yeah, so that's why I come in, because it's, it's a very common thing that if you were, if you were someone like me that's like, familiar with, like, the nerdy side of all the research of this, and then it's not a surprise to me at all. And I can be able to tell a parent when they have a a three year old and a one year old this, this is what you're gonna face in a couple years. Or here's how you start talking about blah, blah, blah in your home, because the two kids you have, for example, are very different in appearance, and that means their experiences are going to be very different. But how can you make sure that number one, they understand this number two, that they know we both get to claim the same things no matter what our experience is, and how do we support each other as siblings? Because, again, a lot of the SIP like, let's say, someone like a Rashida Jones starts to become very aware. Oh, I might have, like, a very different set of privileges in the world, based on what I look like, compared to my sister, even though we have the exact same parents. So then I have a different kind of responsibility, if you will, or awareness to have and make sure that I either make space for my sister or speak up on behalf of my sister, you know. So it's a unique experience that, like, a white presenting or white appearing mixed race person has, yeah,

Shawna  06:34

uh, gosh, like two things came up. So I'm trying to, like, keep my brain organized. The first thing is, so I had guests on my show two seasons ago, maybe where sisters who came on, the very first time they ever talked about their racial identities was on my show,

06:53

oh, the first time you were an adult, adult, yes,

Shawna  06:57

with children, married, living their lives, my goodness, and the it came out, I'll link for listeners. I'll link that episode in the show notes so they can kind of go back and listen to it. But what was so interesting was the reason it was the first time. So their mother is a black identifying woman, and their father white identifying man, and their mother just didn't really bring and I'm doing like, air quotes, blackness into the house. So like, all the music was white pop music. There were some exceptions, like Stevie Wonder was allowed, Michael Jackson was allowed. But they weren't what you would think of as black music, right? So absolutely no R and B, no rap, that kind of thing. Wow, they didn't really have conversations parent child. So they did. These ladies didn't have conversations sibling to sibling, either, and so they talked about what it is and but have always been aware. So they also had awareness that one of them had lighter skin than the other. Some of them had phenotypes that were more what someone would call like having white features versus black features, so to speak, sure. And so even though they were aware, they never discussed it, nothing. They also were aware of different treatment, but it was never like conversation. Do you ever encounter people that they just don't even know where to start, even within family, talking about identity?

08:20

Yes, all the time. I mean, that's, yeah. I mean, it's very, very common that parents are often just like, I wouldn't even know what to say. I don't even how do I bring this up? And classic parent situation is that they worry if I bring up something like race or identity, they're they're kind of approaching it from an adult standpoint, because they think, oh, race, identity, those are, like, really tough topics in adult society, and they're fraught with like, so much hatred and negativity that if I bring it up to my kid, I'm just gonna, like, bring them down and scare them and, like, give them some sort of a complex. But it's like, no, you're not bringing the adult version of like, you know, conflict that adults deal with online or through politics. You are simply you are bringing a concrete, objective truth to your kid, you know. And then as they get older, you can start presenting them with the problems that society has around these groups of people and this particular unique experience that the kid has, but you don't throw the whole baby out with the bathwater because you're so worried about this complex, heavy topic like race and racism, especially in the history of the United States, I think a lot of families worry about it even more. But honestly, it is a it is a worldwide thing, whether it's like countries in Europe or, you know, you name it. I've talked with parents that live in Malaysia or Australia, and they're all trying to navigate this. Like, wait, what do I. Do. So, you know, race, ethnicity, and then, like, being more than one race or ethnicity at the same time, that is a, like, a difficult thing to face for any parent, no matter where they live. Yeah, so it doesn't matter if the, like I said, if the culture is homogenous, Malaysian, or whatever, and you're like, Okay, everybody here is understanding what it means to be Malaysia but I mean Malaysian. But how do I help my kid navigate this thing that they are Malaysian and something else, or, you know, whatever it is, yeah, so it's, it's, it's a daunting task for parents, but they don't realize that they could simplify it and make it more like facts, objectively, you know, the truth. You

Shawna  10:50

know, I guess I hadn't thought about the idea of being an adult getting in the way, like clouding your thought because you're worried and you are so used to by the time you're an adult, showing up in adult situations or conversations in a certain way, and not even realizing actually, you don't really even have to make it that big of a deal like but it is a thing, so let's talk about how to talk about it. Yeah,

11:15

you you give levels. You know, no one goes to a three year old learning the alphabet. We don't say, Okay, do you know what a PIA is? Let's talk about, you know, blah, blah, just like, No, A, B, these are the letters that we have. This is what it looks like. You can practice tracing them if you want. Let's teach you a song, I mean, and then you build on it as they go, you know. Then they get into whatever they whenever they start writing essays and all that kind of stuff, like paragraph is first, and then it's for paragraph, you know. So it's the same thing with race and racism. It's the same thing with anything you teach a kid, you know. But again, I think we get we're so daunted, you know, because we don't we. I think parents understand that when it comes to like, Okay, I'm not gonna throw my kid in the kitchen and say, make a cake, right? I will probably leave them next to me and say, You crack an egg, or you do this thing, or cakes are like, like, you simplify the description of a cake, instead of saying, well, the chemical process of yeast causes bottle if you don't mind

Shawna  12:21

me asking, yeah, just realistically, on a basic level, what could those first conversations sound like?

12:27

Oh, to me, there's lots of ways to approach it like I have books that I suggest that are again, because there are multiple people that understand it's not just me. There are children's book authors that are like, You know what? I'm gonna help you out parent. I will simplify the story of race and ethnicity, and you know, racism even, like, there are literal books that explain racism to a little four year old in a way that does not overwhelm them and things, you know, make them scared of the world. But a great way to start could be just understanding melanin like a little kid can grasp that so easily because they're already like as young as three, a child understands or sees skin color differences. Yes, they understand skin color, skin color differences. They can see it and they want to know about it. So this is often a concerning topic for parents of mixed race kids, because their kid will come up to them and say, Why are you that color? And I'm this color? Oh, that they noticed.

Shawna  13:33

I didn't want them to notice, but now they noticed, what do I do? We think somehow they could supposed to go through life and never see that. Parents

13:43

like, I don't know, you know you're beautiful, I'm beautiful. Everybody's beautiful. And the kids like, okay, but I still, I don't really get why you're lighter, or why, why am I lighter? Like, whatever it is. So you might be able to say, oh, you know what great question you're right, huh? I'm this color, and you're that color. Let's learn about melanin. And then you teach them what melanin does in the body. And then now you get to go on a walk in the neighborhood, and your little three year old is like, they have Moon melanin, yes, yes, they do. Oh, that person doesn't have much smell. No, no. They don't, you know, whatever. And they just grasp that piece of it. And then you can add in as they grow older. Do you know some people are, you know, mean or silly, and they think that if you have more melanin, that that's like a not good thing. Can you believe that really? Yeah, they do, you know, that's it's wrong, you know, and you start to lay that baseline framework of there are people in society that don't get skin color is just that, and it doesn't mean anything else. They've decided all these bad things about it. I want you to know it, but I'm not teaching you that we don't believe that. We know the truth. You know?

Shawna  15:01

Yes, I actually love the idea of starting with the science. Yeah. I mean, I didn't even start with the science, as, you know, growing up in a black family, and what's so funny was I was the one with Les Meliton in my family, and it was always confusing to me, and I don't think I started having those conversations with my mom until the kids at school started asking me questions about being mixed. The other thing I really love about what you explain is, I mean, going back to grown up speak, there's a whole lot of discussion about the approaches to like deal with our history, and we can't really ignore it. We can't get away from it. And I think that the reason we have such an obsession with race is because it's just never been a tone like the wrong that has happened has never been there's never been atonement for it, right? While there have been instances, and I won't go into like, a whole history lesson, but folks can check this out. I actually encourage people to, you know, like with Japanese internment, there was a full on apology. There were actually reparations that took place. That's never happened with the black community. And while the black community did receive an apology, I think it came through Congress, it's so hidden, hardly anybody knows it even happened, and it didn't really change things on and I'm not trying to say there haven't been efforts to change, because it would be silly not to recognize that there we have made some strides, yeah, but it's also important to recognize that we're living in a time where we could go backwards really quick based on a lot of the beliefs being expressed, but even starting with Children Now from the science of it, yeah, takes away the scary, then when You get to the part about the mean, silly people, yeah, they already know it's ridiculous, because they just know everybody's got melanin. It's just different amounts. So, like, why? What's going on? They don't it doesn't have to be something's wrong with me because they don't like me, right? Right?

16:55

It doesn't have to be, oh my gosh, I have the bad skin color. I don't want this. So many mixed race kids, no matter what their background is, they could be, you know, Filipino and white or something, and still be like, I don't like my skin color. I think I need to have that one, because they learn. We just learn in society, what the what the dominant expectation or the beauty standard is, and literally every kid, again, I'm saying, I think sometimes, you know, I have a very strong connection to African American community, and so there's like, light skin in this community. And sometimes we might meet other people that are like, Oh, well, I'm really dark. And they're like, Latin, you know, Latinx or something, and they might say, Well, I'm so dark my family. We might be like, what like was that? What you has relatively, yeah, yeah. But then when you're like, Okay, no, understood within that circle, you know? So that's why I'm saying, no matter what the mixed race kids background, they understand and learn the message of what is considered dark and that you shouldn't be it and again, removing some of that weight would be, you know, you can do that through talking about melanin, for example, or one of the other approaches. But I would just say to kind of what you're saying, the argument, or the conundrum of weather, never to talk about race and erase it all. So it all goes away. We really are equal that colorblind approach or talking about it and somehow keeping it alive. That's what I I get told that a whole bunch get on my on my social media, you know, because, of course, anybody can comment whatever they want, and they feel free to do so because they're

Shawna  18:42

not. Indeed, they do.

18:46

A lot of people say you you're keeping racism alive. Dr Jenn, by talking about it, yeah. So I'm like, okay, to me again, because I work in psychology. I work with kids. This is the same argument that people have about teenage pregnancy. They're interesting. Okay, well, there's a whole camp of adults the

Shawna  19:09

abstinence versus talking about it, and yet the stats show it's still there exactly. I mean, so true what you're saying. I just never made this comparison. Yeah,

19:19

the majority of parents are like, just don't ever talk about sex, and they won't have it and they won't get pregnant, and everything will be fine. And we know that the exact opposite is true. So when you don't talk about sex, the kid doesn't learn anything. They don't know how to prepare themselves for sexual experiences. They don't know how to say no, they don't know how to keep themselves safe. And then what happens with all of those things? If you don't know how to keep yourself safe, say no, make the choices. Know what to expect, then of course, you're much more likely to get pregnant. But when you actually start, you can start very young, with kids again. This alarms parents, but there are beautiful books that. Teach a kid about a seat next without making it sexual or pornographic. You know, don't mind saying if I tell them about sex, no, you're not telling them about sex the way you know it, the way your little nasty mind. But you know, I remember when I was a kid, I used to babysit. I always tell this story because it It shocked me. So here I am a teenager. I'm babysitting my next door neighbor, and he was, you know, sick or loving, so he had a book, and he's like, oh, I want to read this book. And I'm reading it, and I realized as I'm reading it. It's a book that teaching him about and his his parents were educators, so I'm, like, not surprised that they had all these ideas. But it was, it was the most neutral, non sexual, matter of fact, yes, and even the bodies in the book were, like, round, like, just, they had no shape that would, you know, make you think, ooh, curvy woman. And they were just people, just like super blob, like caricature, almost, you know, for a kid, you know, like a cartoon blob. And it even showed them in a bed, but the blanket is over them. And I just remember reading like, should I

Shawna  21:24

am I allowed to you got some Berenstain Bears or some Dr Seuss? Like, I don't even know how to read this, right,

21:32

but I remember going in my head being like, that was actually kind of amazing. I'm like, I think he was sitting there, and he would like, giggle at certain parts because it showed, like, maybe one of the adults in the couple was, like, getting into the shower and a show little Bucha. He's like, I'm like, Okay, you're still a kid. Got it? That's normal, yeah. But it was like, Oh, way to set the stage. And then when that kid gets a little bit older, when you bring up, oh, male, female, he's been like, yeah, yeah, I know. I remember, and I add some stuff to it because of their maturity level. So same thing. I mean, if, if sex is not a frock topic in the United States, oh yeah. And, you know it is, and it's, I don't know which is more fraught, race or sex. You know what I'm saying? Like they are so they're like, neck and neck, and it depends on who you talk to, who's gonna say it's more alarming. But I'm telling you, parents are floored by both. They are just sitting there, like, how the heck do I bring this up? You

Shawna  22:37

know? You know, it is a brilliant analogy, because I think that is so true. And let me tell you, I have a story for you too. Okay, so, and a lot of the times you know, even these conversations we're having are uniquely, I don't want to say like purely uniquely American, but it's very American, right? Yeah, so our family. We lived outside of the US for about 15 years. When we lived in Germany, I was still teaching then, and I taught second grade, and it was a bilingual, bicultural school, so we spoke both English and German. We taught both American and German curriculum. I did not know until it was coming up that in second grade in Germany, that's sexier. And the way the school worked is they would stay with their students from kindergarten, first grade and second grade, and then when those students moved on to third grade, those teachers started kindergarten again, and they would stay with those students. K1 too. So for them, they are like, this is the third year with these kids. Yeah. They're just like, oh, switch out the stuff. Pick it out. Oh, okay. Two months we're gonna be working on this curriculum, and they start handing me books and folders and things. And I'm like, Huh? And they're like, oh, gosh, that's right. We have an American Yeah. So first they sit me down to be like, you gotta chill. You gotta chill, because this is actually what it is about. And the kids aren't freaking out, you're freaking out. So before you do this, we need you to, like, relax. Then they hold a conference night for all of the American parents.

24:14

Wow, because they're like,

Shawna  24:16

this is what's about to come. We already know y'all about to freak out, so just relax. Here are all the books. Pass them around. Look at the materials. These are what the discussions look like. Yes, we do read alouds. Yes, we talk about this. It isn't a big deal. And the parents are like, you can't what? And they're like, you can opt out if you want to. But here's the risks, right? Right. Same thing. Think about drinking, yep, like they're allowed to drink wine and beer at 16, and they can drink hard liquor at 18, but they don't drive until they're 18. They can't get a license until they're 18, and there's all these other things. So the school's connected right all the way up through high school. My son at the time was in high school, and I passed three of. This little pass through. And I passed through and came out on the other side, and I'm walking past lockers, and here's this group of teenagers, probably 1617, talking about a party. They were not talking about a social party. They were talking about political parties. Oh, and I was just like, oh, they make up different here. Like these kids were prepared for life by the time they graduated, right? But I think our culture, here, in the US, we're so afraid. We have so much fear, whether it's about sex, whether it's about drinking, and whether it's about race, we carry so much fear with us. And there, while, yes, there are differences, and they do experience levels of discrimination. Almost always it has to do with immigration or nationality, not actually how you look, yeah? So it's not like, it's perfect, yeah, but we don't even get that far because we're so afraid. Yeah,

25:55

yeah. It's, it's kind of wild when you really look at it, you know, especially like, what countries start sex education, for example, way earlier, and then their rates of STDs. It's like it just goes together, and we are the ones that have the highest rates, even though we're supposed to be like the most industrialized and blah, blah, blah, and we are so behind on so many things when it comes to, like, preparing children,

Shawna  26:26

yeah, it's almost like they come ready, be prepared, and we ruin it, yeah, right, with our fears and Britishness and yes, we carry shame for no reason. Like, why are we ashamed of what we look like? Why are we ashamed of what our bodies do, right? And so what you say, like, I just never made the connection of that analogy, and it's so true. Yeah.

26:51

I mean, like you said, a chill, a child comes ready. We're the one that messes it up. Because they're like, oh, Daddy's this, and mommy's that, and I'm this, and why is that? Like, parents are like, don't say, you know. And then the kids like, Is there something wrong? Oh, something's wrong. Like, we're waiting on it be wrong with me, you know? And then they they're deducing, like, then the kid is like, Oh, I've brought up something I shouldn't have brought up. Because now mom is like, what do I say? Oh, my gosh, you know, and the kids like, I thought this would just be an okay. I thought I could just learn. But now I'm I'm learning much more, somehow that this is learning not to ask, yes, this is an Off Limits topic, and I don't worry, I won't bring it up again. And now this kid is navigating race and identity and mixed race all by themselves. Because they're like, I don't think my parent can handle

Shawna  27:44

it. Wow, yeah, yeah. So let me ask you, how did you decide to get into this work and to help parents and kids in this way, specifically, right?

27:54

I think, you know, this is a little bit more recent, but I have been in the field of psychology, and all of my training in clinical psychology has been with children and adolescents. So I've always, always, always worked with them, whether you know, like I said, in all of my training, all of my fellowships, anything has been focused on working with children and adolescents, and in that process, you are going to interface with parents. Now, I think a classic joke amongst any type of therapist that works with kids is they're sort of like, love the kids. Can't deal with the parents, you know. But I that's not really my stance. I think I did a training once where we were required to involve the parent in their child's therapy. They had their own kind of parent session, and it's under a whole framework itself. And so when I worked there, it was like, we were required to do this process. And I realized I was just like, oh my gosh, when you get the parent heavily involved, like, and I mean that a parent has a weekly session just about being a parent. It's not like listening to your personal life. It's not therapy for them. It's literally, what are you seeing at home? What's difficult for you with this kid? Like you know your kid has come to therapy, what did you struggle with? And you're helping them work through just some of their own perceptions and experiences and approaches and realizing, hey, that approach is not working, because one, two and three, and you would see so much more progress in that kid when you could just chip away even a little bit at what the parent was doing or perceiving. You know, for me, I would know if a parent, if I was working with a parent, because, of course, the parents gonna be like, don't you tell me? Like, Oh no, you're gonna tell me I'm doing everything wrong. So they're kind of more defensive. But when you explain something to them, and then you see that parent go, oh, like, I see what I'm doing. You don't have to do anything else. They automatically make the shift, and then the kid is going to respond in kind. And then, you know, again, like I said, you can start to see some progress. You're like, Okay, now let's build on this. Like, now you tend to get what I'm saying. I'm not against you. I'm helping you break through to meet your kid. And they're like, Oh yeah, yeah. Let's talk more about it. So that work was going on, that was always happening. And then on the side, I used to kind of keep my world separate, I guess because I was doing nonprofit work with mixed race organizations. So I was helping, you know, either going to conferences or running seminars or just planning things to raise awareness and advocate for the mixed race experience, or interracial couples or trans racial adoptees. And at some point, I started to realize, oh, I can merge these two, because in the nonprofit space, I was meeting a lot of parents who who were raising mixed race kids, and they didn't know what to do. And you know, I would sit around with maybe some of the other leaders of this organization, and we'd be like, Man, we really need to find some therapy work with the pit Exactly. I'm like, yeah, just there's hardly any I've never met once. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, what the heck? Like, yeah. So that's when I realized that, and so I started my private practice where that became my focus. And like, Okay, I am the psychologist that you can come to with your mixed race kid, or you as a mixed race adult. Like, I made that my focus, because I, again, I didn't see it that much out there, but then I added this, like, wait, maybe I can just do coaching, because a parent doesn't need therapy to learn how to, like, meet their kid in this way? Sure. I mean, maybe they do, but I would send them, you know, somewhere else. But they need education, and they need guidance, and that's what I can provide. And so that's when I began building all the, you know, the different facets of it and stuff. Yeah,

Shawna  31:57

do you think your identity has ever come into play with how you've decided to build out your practice? Oh,

32:05

no, I think it is. It definitely is. I mean, my identity, on so many different levels, impacts how I do what I do. I mean, I've had a very specific experience based on the way that I look, and because I get perceived a certain way, I think that impacts how I interact with other people, how they interact with me, but then it also shifts the way that I interact with parents of mixed race kids, because I think there might be a classic picture in most people's minds of what a mixed race person is or looks like. And so then I am, like, the first place that a parent gets challenged because they're like, Oh, you're mixed. Oh, like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't think you were like, Yeah, I understand, like, you many people don't, because you've been probably fed a particular picture of what it looks like, and most often that's like, black, white and some classic look that that might result in which it doesn't always but, but apparently we think it always looks like this one particular picture. So that's one piece of it, but then the second piece is again, because I don't have a white parent, I think that makes my mixed race experience very unique and a little bit on the back burner. Meaning, if I go into any of these spaces, or if I read research, it's often on backgrounds that are not mine. And so I am taking a very observer approach, or a very comparing, comparative kind of approach, because I can read something be like, oh, yeah, yeah, except Oh, that part didn't really apply to me, you know? And so i i can take all that in. And so when I'm working with parents, I think it makes me have a stance of the shared mixed race experience. Because no matter where the person is from, like I said, no matter the country, no matter the background, you can bring 10 mixed race people together, and they can have 210, totally different racial, ethnic, back, you know, mixes, but at some point they're going to be like, Oh, me too. Oh my god. I hate when this happens. And, oh, I totally been through that. So what I educate and what I provide for parents is based on that, and what I find is the difference is sometimes, when parents are going to find their support, maybe on the like random Facebook groups of the world or something, they're often finding either a white other or specifically Black, White approach, and they're trying to like extrapolate it to their kid. But the perspective is not as universal, and so it's not as universal, and sometimes it's not as vetted, if you will, or like Not, not as compared to, like the research on this population. And it's more coming from a stance of either on black. Yeah, I'm black, or I'm white, or I am both, and here's what I think, or here's what you need to watch out for, here's what you shouldn't do. But it's not really telling I don't that makes sense, but it's not painting this like, Look, here is a baseline thing of where all this comes from. It's not a black white thing. It is a mixed race experience. And and I try to give that that, like, baseline, that ties everything together. And I think that's why I end up being able to work with a lot of parents, because at first they might be tentative, like, oh, well, can my kid come and then they realize, Oh, you're talking about it. So generally, that I can say I did go through that. They just said it a little different to me, you know, yeah, you know,

Shawna  35:41

I'm so glad to hear you say this, because it gives me some validation with the research that I do, which is with adults in workplaces. But what are adults? They used to be kids and they grew up, right? So these things aren't changing exactly in terms of those lived experiences. So one, it's interesting as you talk about people trying to sort of perceive your identity and being like, I don't know like, are you credible? They have to trust that you know what you're talking about, not having a white parent. And why I say that is because I'm not biracial, but I have mixed racial ancestry. I don't know what it's like to have a white parent, yeah, but I'm often assumed to be black, white. Mix people react to me in a very similar way that they react to black, white or brown, black, mixed people gotcha, because they make that assumption, yeah, but I don't come with the built in. Here are the two worlds. I'm living in peace. The second thing is, it all plays out differently in the workplace. The surveys and the interviews that I've conducted, there are people that are like, I don't see a problem. I don't know what anybody's talking about, but usually they're not what I call impact, which is multiracial people of color, meaning both of their parents are people of color, okay, but what they do have in common probably matches what you have seen as this sort of baseline, which is feeling like you're straddling worlds, feeling insecure, as if there's like I'm not enough of this or that, and and learning how to embrace I'm this and that, not this or that, and this idea of liminality or fluidity change, you know, like sometimes I feel more This, and sometimes I feel and people not understanding. I also work with companies through diversity, equity, inclusion principles, by applying them, right? And so it's like, great, you have your employee resource groups or affinity groups, but we have people that feel like they can't go because they're not black enough or Asian enough, or whatever fill in the blank enough. What about an erg for people who have mixed racial experiences? Yeah, come together and talk about those common things, right? And so I love that you said it, because it I think unless you come from this space, it would be really easy to overlook, because we are so used to we being monoracial folks looking through a specific lens, also the lenses that have been provided to us.

38:05

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so it's about to me, it's at least with working with parents, it's challenging. Those lenses maybe not challenging, but just expanding the little viewpoint so kind of scrolling out so like, their picture gets bigger and bigger, and they could be like, oh, oh, wait a minute, I was so pinpointed on this one thing, yeah, and they don't often know how to expand their lens, so they kind of have blind spots when it comes to their mixed race kids. And that means that's for parents who are monoracial or parents who are mixed race, because even a parent who is mixed race and lived that experience. Yes, they are going to be, you know, they're lended a little bit more open, because they're like, Okay, I know how the world treated me or I, you know, but they, many times, haven't navigated through all their own stuff yet. But then they have this piece of like, oh, wait, my kid is still not going to have the same experience as me, because they have a different other parent, so then they're still kind of starting from scratch, like, wow, oh no. What is it? I didn't think about that, or I thought I would be like, I got this, I know how to talk to my kid. Then they're like, wait, but I don't know, you know? Yeah, so that's an

Shawna  39:15

important assumption to challenge, right? Like, I hadn't even consider that either I do talk about what I call it, opening your aperture, increasing your depth of field, right, like it's because you're right, but you sort of focus in and miss a whole lot of good stuff. And challenging those assumptions is always a good practice. And so, yeah, you taught me so much already today. What is something that you want all parents to know, regardless of race, about how children learn to see themselves as they're developing, I

39:51

mean, that they they really do not have the information like I would want. Parents to really understand that

Shawna  40:02

the parents don't have the information, or that the kids don't have the kids

40:04

don't that the kids do not have any info. They are really, literally starting from scratch, like, again, going back to my cake example, yeah, there is a child in the world that is seven and still has not seen a cake. Let's say, you know, depending on where they live. So it's just, I mean, you introducing stuff, you as a parent, are the one that gets to, like, provide their first exposure to so much stuff, because the kid just they literally did not know they've only been living for four years. You know? Why do we expect me to know? Like, past presidencies in the history of racism, it's like, no, did you? Did you know that there was a color yellow? And the kids like, yeah,

Shawna  40:49

right. Then blow their mind when they learn there's a golden rod, exactly, right? We take so many things for granted based on our own lived experiences, and we just make these mental models where, if we're not careful, close ourselves off. Like I met a kid a few summers ago. We went to some friend's house for Fourth of July celebration, and the child had never seen lightning bugs, and so they were like, so like, Oh my God, these are bugs, and they light up. So I could be like, yeah, let me tell you, and you can catch them, and we're holding them and all of that stuff. But I learned about my assumptions of what kids should know or would think everybody knows, and so I had a chance, thanks universe, to talk to this child and then actually explore the world with them in this way, through through the lightning bugs. But yeah, yeah. How much more richness could we provide for our children if we could? I don't want to say, I don't know even how to say this. Dr, Jenn, but like, clean our own slates off a little bit. Yeah, we got too much assumption junk, right? It's in the

41:52

way. Yeah. I mean, honestly, that that's some that's often like a beginning place I try to go with parents is helping them kind of see their own experience, see their own perspective first, and then see where that might have made some blind spots when it comes to their child's experience, not it's just not in a bad way. It's just like you have to know where you started and where you're kind of coming into this raising of your mixed kid, like, where are you coming from? What views and values are you bringing into the table that you may not have ever evaluated? Yeah, and maybe some we challenge, but maybe some we keep you know what I mean, but you got to know what

Shawna  42:30

they are. Yeah? Makes total sense. Yeah. I know we're going to close really soon. So I just want to ask you one more question. All of us start somewhere. I'm wondering over the time that you've worked with families and children and your practice in general, what's something very valuable that you have learned as a practitioner?

42:51

I think the one that's coming to mind now is just how much we underestimate the depth and complexity of thought that young children and adolescents, you know, there is a certain way that kids and teens may learn to like, speak and interact with their parents again, because they it's based off of, well, you normally don't like to talk about this, or, Oh, you don't really spend too much time listening. You're gonna tell me how to fix it anyway, so I'll just give you the short version. But when they are outside of that kind of dynamic, it's amazing what you know, eight year olds think, or what 13 year olds think, and how much they're aware. I mean, I've sat with 13 year olds, who the parents are, like, she's so mature, she doesn't do this, she's lazy, she shouldn't have her phone. She and then that kid is in therapy crying, like, you know, my mother went through so much, and it's like, I can't help you with that. And I'm trying to do but you're pushing me, and I'm asking you, just give me some time to think about I'm like, wow, insightful. Like, and she would never feel comfortable to say that to the parent because of the dynamic they have. And I'm like, she's been, you know, this kid, or many others have been like thinking on a deeper level that I like I said, I just don't think, I think people underestimate how, how deep and how complex their like evaluation of themselves and their world and the parents that are raising them. You know, I've never met a kid that does not have their own like, breakdown of what's going on for their parent, the same way that the parents like, let me tell you about my kid. The kids are like, Okay, let me tell you about my mom.

Shawna  44:31

I can appreciate that Absolutely. My son sent me a Tiktok once. It was super sweet. It was really short, it was this, maybe, maybe 1819, or early 20s, something person that was like, you know, I had to realize that my mom or dad, or whomever my parent, my parent is learning how to be a parent as their parent. Parenting. This is the first time they're doing this too, right? Even if you have more than one child, parenting more than one child, is the first time you've parented more than one child. So everything is a first. And so I was like, Oh, my God. So here's this young adult realizing, yeah, my parents are people, and going through new things, just like I'm going through new things, and to be able to extend them grace. And I was like, wow. Well, it felt good for my kid to see me, you know, or to see us, you know, as parents, to be like, I get it. You're learning too, just as I'm learning. But yet, as parents, I say this as well to leaders, there's something about getting a title, whether the title of now I'm a parent or now I'm a manager or now I'm a whatever, that makes us somehow think we're supposed to suddenly know everything. How could we make mistakes? We're supposed to know everything now and so to also give ourselves some grace as we're learning. You

Shawna  46:03

music. Listen. I am I am not disappointed. I am not surprised. This has been a good, good conversation, and you bring a richness to this space. So appreciate you. Thank you. Where can folks find you? I

46:17

think the main place I tend to go the most is Instagram. So my handle there is Dr Jenn, Psych, D, R, j, e, n, n2, n's, and then P, S, Y, C, H, and then, of course, my website is another place, so that's free to be collective.com that's the name of my organization. So I think those are probably the best places to find you fantastic.

Shawna  46:39

Well, I'll link everything in the show notes for folks, yeah, so any additional thoughts or questions you have for me before we close?

46:46

No, I think this is it. I think it was such a great, very fun discussion. Thank you. I

Shawna  46:52

did too, and I just really appreciate the work you do, and I'm certain that the listeners will too. So thank you so much for joining. Just wish you the best in everything that you're doing, and thank you again. I know that parents out there are going to be so enriched. So thank you. Dr, Jenn, thank

47:08

you. Thank you. Same to you.

Shawna  47:18

What a powerful conversation with Dr Jennifer noble, I am so grateful for the wisdom, the insight and the personal stories she shared with us today. If you want to connect more with Dr jin or explore her work, be sure to check out the mixed life Academy, an online community where parents raising mixed race kids can find support, resources and guidance to help their children thrive with confidence and resilience. And before we wrap up, I have a few updates for you. I am still diligently working on my upcoming book, this, that and the other, the shifting kaleidoscope of mixed race identity in the workplace, and I cannot wait to share it with you. To stay updated, head over to trueculture consulting.com where you can sign up for book news. Don't forget to follow our true colors on Instagram and connect with me personally on LinkedIn, as well as follow the true culture consulting LinkedIn page. There you can subscribe to the culture clinic, a newsletter that I write that has insights on identity and culture in the workplace. And for today's episode, be sure to go back to the podcast show notes for all the links mentioned today. There you can also find a link to send me direct messages and share your ideas for future guests and topics. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you again for joining me today. It's always great to have you, and until next time, stay curious, stay connected and keep embracing your true colors. Spread the Love y'all. I'll talk to you soon.

Jason  48:56

You've been listening to our true colors. You.