Beyond Your Zip Code Story: Exploring Background, Bias, and Growth

In this episode, Shawna Gann and Rachel Sadler engage with author Christopher "CJ" Gross, an expert in cultural transformation, to discuss the concepts in his book, What's Your Zip Code Story? Together the group discusses implications on personal and professional experiences. They explore how one's background and community can shape perceptions, opportunities, and biases in the workplace. The discussion emphasizes the importance of mentorship, understanding class migration, and the need for a supportive culture that fosters growth and inclusivity, including expanding your zip code story through meeting new people, going to different places, and trying new things. Throughout the conversation, they highlight the significance of being aware of biases and the necessity of creating psychological safety in mentorship relationships.

Stuff mentioned in the episode that you should check out:

• The Financial Perks of Being Tall
• Stereotype Threat
• Half of U.S. states have passed the CROWN Act to ban hair discrimination

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Transcript

Introduction  00:06

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:22

Hey, Rachel, how you doing? Hello,

Rachel  00:24

friend. I'm doing good. It is like hot, like feeling the heat in more ways than one. And I told you I got a Mustang recently, or did I tell you that you did not? It has air conditioned seats, Mustang. Sorry, go on. It is Mustang. Rachel friends, and has air conditioned seats, which Your girl is thoroughly enjoying. Wow, I get the full experience on the regular, and it's got the remote start so we can cool everything down, and then I get in have some shorts on. So you know, the air conditioned seats are giving what a time to be alive. Yeah.

Shawna  00:55

Well, I do not have air conditioning seats in my vehicle, and that's okay, but I did wish that I had, like, some sort of portable thing the other day. Have you ever done canvassing for a political candidate?

Rachel  01:07

No, that's not on my resume of things yet. So I did this

Shawna  01:11

last election season in 2020 I made phone calls and and I thought this time I will talk to people, because, you know, it's not COVID time, and we'll be outside. And I thought it would be neat, so I did that. And yeah, it was hot. It was so hot, but it was so neat because it was in a neighborhood that is in my county, but I'd never been there. And, you know, I had a partner with me. You know, when you go to the headquarters and they sort of pair you up. So we were together, and both of us live in the county, but don't know this particular area. We were like, wow, I this is really cool. Never knew this neighborhood was like this. And as we started to prepare and walk around, we were both sort of thinking like, I wonder what this neighborhood is like. What type of people live here? And it just sort of made me think about how we can live near one another, but just one neighborhood over, a couple neighborhoods over, could completely be a different situation for someone, or could experience could be different. So I don't know. It was neat to talk to folks. Yeah,

Rachel  02:17

you were doing your patriotic things. I love that specific duty. You know what I'm saying.

Shawna  02:22

But also, this election means a lot to me, not only as a citizen and resident of the United States of America, but also, there's some issues that are very close to home for me and my family that I just can't afford to not do what I can to help folks know what the issues are and and have some conversations out there. I thought it'd be cool to share that experience with you because of our guest today, who actually talks about the places you live and how that can influence your experiences. Should I tell you about him? Go for it. All right. His name is Christopher gross. He goes by CJ, and he is a leading expert in cultural transformation, and he has a knack for creating inclusive environments and delivering actionable strategies. So he has a diverse background. He has worked in sales, nonprofits, engineering and change management, and he's known for his engaging and thought provoking presentations. I know this firsthand because I actually went to one of his presentations. I attended a conference almost a year ago, and he was there speaking. He's the author of the book called What's your zip code story, and the subtitle is really cool, because this is the part that I think brings it all home. It's understanding and overcoming class bias in the workplace. His work has been featured in The Washington Post, Harvard Business Review, all over the place. He's pretty freaking amazing, and I'm so excited to welcome him. So I hope you are too.

Rachel  03:44

You ready? I'm into it. Let's go. All

Shawna  03:47

right. Hey, CJ, how are you doing?

CJ  03:48

Hey, Johna, how are you

Shawna  03:50

good? Um, so You're impressive. That's just,

CJ  03:53

that's just how we write our bio. So it sounds that way. Well,

Shawna  03:57

well, as I mentioned, I actually got to see you in action, and so I'm not going to let you just sort of, it's just about you. You

Rachel  04:08

feel modest.

Shawna  04:09

Yeah, no, it's really good to have you. I'm a fan of what you talk about, because I think people sort of get an idea when they think of Dei. And for those of you who aren't sure dei is diversity, equity, inclusion. When they hear those letters or they hear something about diversity, a lot of folks have an idea in their head what that is, and many people just immediately equate that to race. I can't say I'm surprised, because the history in the United States is so wrapped around that, but you actually advocate for a different take on that, before we dig into all that good stuff, though, tell us a little bit about you, the person, not necessarily professional. Sure. What kind of stuff do you like? What you into?

CJ  04:52

So, you know, someone asked me this the other day, and I was like, you know, I have a diverse list of hobbies. I'll call them hobbies. Police. They're still normal, going outside, taking a walk, all those different things. But I love, I love motocross. I love riding dirt bikes, sub butter. I just like motocross fight after the age of 40, right? Like I start riding after the age of 40. I'm not gonna do my friends were talking. It's like, you know, one of them called me up. It was like, are you having, like, a mid, mid crisis? Because I was also got into scuba diving, kayaking, you know, just didn't really get in the horseback ride if I just started to expand my zip code story, which is, I am a part of the book, right? So just doing things and activities and see these new people that expand. You know my understanding of life, but you know I was having an adventure seeker. So skydive, anything that did your heart race. Oh

05:53

yes, Rachel's face,

Rachel  05:57

you have kayaking, because I'm so excited about the kayaking trip I went on last weekend. That was delightful. But, yeah, the jumping out of perfectly good planes, I know, right?

CJ  06:09

Thank you. Well, you know, Rachel, what's interesting, if you look at the statistics, if you were, like the numbers person, and you care about those things, the one I went skydive and I did the research, and it's actually, you're actually safer skydiving than you are walking across the street, like in New York or something,

Shawna  06:25

oh, I was gonna say in DC, I believe that

CJ  06:28

any major city, right, like you're driving in a car, it's actually statistically safer to jump out of airplane. That's the only reason, at the end of the day, I was like,

Rachel  06:37

fair. So my central system is like, no,

CJ  06:41

it's a hard No, right? I think that would describe me the most is just, you know, adventure, activity and culture. I love to travel to as well. That's a big part of,

Shawna  06:53

yeah, I Yeah. I would describe you as an adventure as well. I prefer to learn about other people's adventures in that kind of way. Oh, I read about them. Watch them on the screens. What happened next? Yeah, like, Wow, they're so amazing. It's good for them. I adventures for me. Like, I'm so risk averse. It's terrible. We'll have, like, friends or neighbors, or even family will be like, hey, you know, because we live in the DC area, let's go to MGM, let's go to the casino, whatever. And I'm like, I will watch everybody's things. Like,

CJ  07:30

I just, I just, so the risk is, is spending money or losing money. That's right. That's right, saving the $25 that you might spend on talking

Shawna  07:39

about here is my roll of $10 quarters. This roll is gone. Then you can find me at the Starbucks, like, that's it. No, I would love to have a little bit more adventure in that way. I mean, in other ways, I'm a risk taker in terms of the kind of stuff I do for my business. And, you know, in that way. So it's not, I'm not trying to paint myself as someone who's not gonna stick my neck out in some ways. I just, you

Rachel  08:09

know, physiologically, I prefer

Shawna  08:11

to keep myself on the ground, not in the air. I'm also not in water. Out of Water. I am a leg dweller.

Shawna  08:30

So tell us, because you kind of hinted at it. You said part of this is having to do with your zip code story. So now tell us what this means. ZIP Code story,

CJ  08:38

sure. So we've all met people, and we've asked, Where are you from? And as soon as they say that area, they don't necessarily say there's a code story, there's zip codes, the numbers, but they will say, I'm from this area in Chicago, Washington, DC, Atlanta, whatever it is, in a specific area. And immediately, if you say you're from a specific area, that person creates a narrative about you, right? Whether it's good, whether it's bad, whether it's home in the middle, based on your own experience, right? And so that's that's really what the zip code story is, but the the hard numbers of it, when we did research for the book, the Census Bureau looks at a person's zip code, the numbers that where they grew up, and determines their mortality rate, their how much education they will receive, their health status over time, their involvement with the criminal justice system. They're just so many different factors. And so the zip code story is the story behind that, because we've all met people who defy where we think who they who we think they are based on where they live, right? And I've done that before. If someone says, I met a woman who was, I talk about this in the book, was from India, and this was a while back. And so, of course, when you watch a lot of movies. And you see, you start to think, like a lot of people are poor in India. And I started, instead of talking to her, right? That's instead of talking to her from a perspective of just learning her, I was thinking, oh so sad, so unfortunate, right? And then I interviewed her for my book, and it's like, Come to find out she was very well to do. And I was embarrassed, right? I was like, oh gosh. And so I think the zip code story is really the narrative that not just that someone else has about you, but it is how it is your zip code story as well, and how you perceive it. So I've heard people say, Well, I've only had a public school education, only right, only right. Oh, I went to a fake college. I went to a community college, right? So it excludes you from being great, or from being, you know, something other than you know, what that person might think you lost. And I think that is, that's what I wanted to highlight. Until, in a nutshell, the zip code story is really the story behind your experiences and how you do it.

Rachel  10:55

Yeah, I love that's interesting. Um, as part of you know what I teach in my dei workshops around like recruiting and hiring, is to redact resumes, so to take away names, dates on schooling as well as zip codes. Because, again, there's an idea that we have about somebody in particular, if they're local to you, about where they where they live, and I've seen it firsthand in my experience, where people will be discriminatory against someone because their name sounds a certain way. They only want people with certain types of names. And then also like, Oh well, I grew up around the corner from here, and I know what kind of people are in those neighborhoods, right? And so it's like, it's interesting how humans find these creative ways. This woman on tick tock said it so beautifully. She's like, we find creative ways to oppress ourselves daily. We also find creative ways to oppress each other by just looking at where you grew up or where you currently live, yeah,

Shawna  11:44

Rachel, I think you just covered it, because that's kind of what you were getting at. CJ, I think like when you said, a person will say, I only did this, or,

11:54

yeah, I talk about that too,

Shawna  11:55

because, you know, I used to be a teacher of little ones for several years, and it was interesting, as I was getting ready to go through my career change, I found myself describing myself as just a teacher. I'm just a teacher. Well, I'm only this. And I was like, Now, hold on lives,

CJ  12:15

okay,

Shawna  12:16

but there's so much. And I joke around, and I say, Look, if there's going to be an apocalypse, what you need is an elementary school teacher around you and or a military spouse, or someone who's been a trailing spouse, because those people are the most resourceful they can pivot and turn on a dime. They know how to navigate stressful situations when there's crises, and they usually are holding a ton of responsibility on their shoulders all while doing this. So I don't allow myself anymore to say I'm just a fill in the blank, or I'm only fill in the blank, but you're right, like sometimes we internalize what we think our zip code story should be based on what maybe others have said, or what you imagined, kind of like you talked about learning about that person from India, like what media we consume, or what things we consume to give us those ideas, and as we compare ourselves with others, we risk that for ourselves.

CJ  13:12

Absolutely what we do our brain does without our awareness, our attention, or many times our control, is we classify people, places and things based on our own zip code story. So if when I was growing up, these type of people were mean to me, or people who live on this side of the railroad track or this side of the river or whatever it was, then we tend to take that data and information in our brains without intention, awareness, control bills in a hierarchy system, an algorithm that says, Okay, well, if you look like this and gone to this school, or you are of this background, maybe of this race, or whatever it is, we categorize people and without really understanding and once we build that narrative, is what we see now in many workspaces, we see This also in our political conversation, it's a very polarizing conversation that if you are part of the left, the right, the left or right, we automatically say that you are in this camp, and you are this person, and then that person, if they're not on the same page as you, they could spend a lot of time, effort and energy trying to debunk that story that you have in your head. And I think that's the reason why we do this work, is to help people just build relationships and get to know one another, to expand. You know, there's a zip code story, but that brain, that brain, does not want that to happen.

Rachel  14:39

No, those heuristics, those neural pathways are rude, are like rooted and booted. They do not want to go nowhere. You know, the brain is is lazy in many ways, because it's doing so much. You know, it's keeping us alive. Our immune systems are going I mean, there's so much that we have the brain has to do. So it has to make these quick decisions, and then we make quick decisions. Just about important things, however, right? And that's where we get that. Tripped up, yeah,

CJ  15:05

I was moving something for my wife yesterday, and I was tired by the time I brought the U haul truck back. And this was the this place had a whole bunch of U haul trucks, and the gentleman who was behind the counter identified being Indian, because I talked to them and so we have conversation. And so when I brought the truck back, there was an Indian gentleman who was moving something he was in the parking lot, and I just talked to him like, I know you work here. So let me ask you this question. And as I asked him, like, am I supposed to put the dollies over here? Am I supposed to do this? The look that he was giving me, oh, and it was like he didn't say anything, but it was look on his face like, come on, Rob, are you kidding me? He didn't say anything. He just walked away. And I was just like, yeah, that just happened, right? And I think we're human. And I'm just like, yes, yeah. And from the DEI consultant, right?

Shawna  15:53

But the thing you just said is key, we're human, right? We're human dei consultant or not, right? Of course, I've done things like that too, because we default to a certain way, and it is embarrassing when something like that happens. But then to remember also to give ourselves a little bit of grace and make sure that you try harder next time, right? Like, if we're not more intentional, we can sort of find ourselves falling back into those patterns. So it happens, it happens, grant yourself some grace and notice what happened, but then also bring in the intentionality with that is important for the next time. I think that's an important

Rachel  16:27

part to know. And people have a hard time with that. People have a hard time feeling embarrassment, shame, guilt. How do we transform those feelings? Because, as CJ was sharing that story, I've been on the receiving end of that multiple times, because apparently, as a person of color, you are an employee in every place that you are in. So I'm, you know, down at the target trying to get my things. And this woman is like, hey, excuse me, I am not wearing a red shirt. I have no COVID. But were you wearing red? Because

Shawna  16:54

I have done that to people.

Rachel  16:57

So I have on pink or some adjacent color, maybe a salmon, but no target red. And I looked at this woman, like, are you? Are you serious right now? And like, probably the same look that that the man gave CJ, was like, be all the way for real. And I didn't say anything to her. I just looked at her, and she was like, Oh, you don't work here. No, I don't. I do not have on any of the accouterments of somebody that works at Target. And so it reminds me of, like, how often folks of color experience that, wait

CJ  17:30

a minute, did she complain about and then you as a bad employee to the manager?

Rachel  17:34

Oh, that's between her and the

Shawna  17:39

guy, but and they are, like, not even wearing red.

Rachel  17:42

The lady comes in here a lot, but she does not work here. Okay, so how and how, as a practitioner of the work that we teach, we also, we are also parts of that work, right? And ashana was sharing, you know, like being an educator, also an educator, an educator of a wide variety of student populations, and people make decisions about children before they even come in your classroom. And that's why I say to the teachers from the report, I don't want to hear any stories you have, because people grow over the course of a summer and well, they're from that neighborhood. Okay, well, there's, there are a lot of things that neighborhood, but you know, where we have children from that neighborhood, so I don't want to hear about these things to tarnish the way that I perceive that person when they come into my classroom, because there's a story that follows these children already, and now you're adding to that story. I would like that child to tell me their own story, and not have you color it with with your perception and your ideas based on your experience that you have from them and what you think about them based on where they're from, right?

Shawna  18:54

CJ, how does this manifest at work, like when people bring their zip code stories with them. Sure.

CJ  19:01

I mean, it manifests as stereotyping. It manifests as unconscious bias, or, at times, conscious bias, and the impact is being excluded from job opportunities, being excluded from succession planning. Like I said, we all heard it, but if you've been striving, if you're in middle management, you've heard that person doesn't have a certain quality, you know, a leadership quality, or this person doesn't have executive presence. Oh, and I remember someone said to me, they just flipped out, what is executive presence, right? And someone, someone said, obviously, it's not me. Oh, well, what they were really saying was, I think that's such a gray area, but it's the reality like, can you see this person going in front of your clients? Can you see this person working with you know, your your employees, your groups, and getting and swaying them? Right? And unfortunately, we look at a person and how they. Dress. There's research that shows if you're a man and you are six foot two, yeah, you have a Yeah. It's very when I give people the statistic that says that if you are six foot two, that you are most likely to be in leadership. And a lot of people will like, Oh, yeah. And I had this one guy say once he's like, because it depending on how tall you are. It's like $1 amount. It's like 400 something dollars. 400 something dollars per year. And this guy gets up and says, it says something about, like, I should be getting a raise or something, right? Because he felt like he wasn't living up. He's like, I'm tall, but I haven't made that much money. But there's all these things that happen without our intention, awareness or control, you know, like, for example, you're in a board meeting, right? So I sit on them two boards, and you can easily defer to the person who you think is the qualified person, right, and excluding what their actual experience is, right? And sometimes that could be the male, sometimes that might be based on race, or it might be based on height. It might be based on who's the who's the loudest, who is the age? Yeah, oh yes, the one who has the salt and pepper hair, whatever it is. And so that's how it kind of manifests. But it also then leaks down into these other, you know, conversations in terms of career trajectory. When you experience this from a negative perspective in the beginning of your career, it can derail your opportunities, you know, for leadership, for management, for maybe getting in a C suite or even applying for a leadership position or a program.

Shawna  21:27

Yeah, I can definitely imagine that. I also wonder if there's some element of stereotype threat that can be included in that. So if you've had an experience where you're passed over in some way, and you start to believe, like, oh, that's because they don't let fill in the blank of said identity into this space or whatever. And then you just sort of, I don't know, agree with it or right? Yeah, own it. That

CJ  21:52

becomes a part of your narrative, yeah? And not such a great way. And then before you know, it's like, the next time you apply, you're already thinking that, yeah, and so that, because that, unfortunately, it becomes your reality, self fulfilling prophecy. And that happens, good and bad. I've had people say, you know, I am going to be in this position. I am going to do and it's the people that we see on television, we see at the C suite, especially when we look at someone who we might consider a historically marginalized individual, it's like, well, how did they get there? Because if, if my narrative is true for me, being, let's say, for example, being a person of color, let's say I'm a woman, or I'm part of LGBTQ community, or I have a this different ability, whatever it is that is my lived out narrative, I then start to kind of manifest and start bringing forward, and I don't see the opportunities I could because of the story and that. Then there's brain science that actually supports that. We we see what we're used to seeing, right? So if you're used to seeing, I have people who are like in for sororities or fraternities, and they see their colors all the time, or football teams, or whatever it is, your brain gravitates towards those things in which you're used to, and so that is the very, very unfortunate space that a lot of people find themselves in, companies and organizations. And to break that narrative, I wouldn't say it's hard, but it requires some personal work, some self reflection, looking in the mirror, which sometimes we don't like to do because it's easier to have that narrative support our not achieving the things that we really want to achieve. Yeah,

Shawna  23:27

no, I can appreciate that. As a coach, there's a question we ask sometimes, when folks feel stuck in their in that space that tape is playing, whatever that tape is, and you ask, like, so what is it about that message that is serving you? What do you love about that? And that's kind of a jarring question, because the person at first is like, I don't love it at all. And you're like, really? Because you seem to kind of be that's

CJ  23:51

the question we get mad about, right? Like, what do you mean a little bit,

Shawna  23:55

I'm like, but I mean, it seems to be an old hit. You just keep playing that tape over and over. So there's got to be something there that you love about it, what's going on, and then it does. It holds up that mirror, which you said, it's hard, it's hard. I wanted you to speak on that a little bit, because I know it can show up differently in the workplace, as people either are able to turn off that tape, never let that tape play in the first place, or if they do, continue to let that play. And it's to be fair, there are some things that are external, that are beyond our control, but then we can still make choices to try to navigate those situations. I'll

CJ  24:27

share a quick story, and I think people can not recognize whether this was their story or experience or something similar. When I was going to school, so I was in my book, I talk about being undiagnosed dyslexic, and so going through school was very challenging, all those things, right? And my narrative, anything that happened, it was like, can't do autism, dyslexic. Ironically, can do it. I'm dyslexic. It was really sad, right? And then I had several people kind of debunk that by telling me. Their story. And before I knew this person, you know, they have their doctorate, did all these amazing things and, like, and then they look over at me, they're like, Well, yeah, it was hard going to school because I'm dyslexic. No, I was like, I was like, I didn't want them to if I was honest, I didn't want them because now that means that I'm just underachieving. That just means that I'm underachieving, right? And so when I was in school, the narrative wasn't just that I was dyslexic, it's just that I wasn't smart. And so what happened was I wanted to graduate undergrad with a three point, I think, 3.8 3.9 GPA, because in my mind, my story was if I do that, no one told me that that was the case, but if I do that meant that I would be smart, and that meant, I don't know what else it meant, but that I would be smart, so every time I would get close to, you know, not getting the grade I want, I would stop school, and because of that. So we're talking about the trickle down effect of the story. Because of that, it took me six years to complete my degree because I kept stopping, because I didn't think I was going to get my GPA, that

Shawna  26:03

I wanted the metric that you created for yourself, that I created

CJ  26:06

in my head. And since I graduated, no one has ever asked me what

26:11

much they don't care. When you get older. They're like, can you do the work?

Shawna  26:17

Right, right? Although I do have one professor who we're still attached. And every once and I'm like, No, you don't want to give me a beat, I had a 4.0 homie. He's like, Oh, my God. I'm like, but does anyone ask? No, nobody. Nobody asked. You're right. It's about what skills you have. What do you bring into the table? Do

Rachel  26:36

you have a degree? The overachiever in me is like, but also that four point

26:43

years later,

CJ  26:46

I still I would have made me upset that 1v though, I'm not gonna lie, yeah, did it? Did I want to go back and kick that conversation?

Shawna  26:53

And he was like, literally, Shawna, I'm like, No, literally,

CJ  26:58

I hear you go, then you could drop it. You could drop it anytime you wanted, only when I was in school at Fort Worth we do. I mean, we do. We all do that, especially in professional environments. We drop stuff, just let people know, especially that could be right. So anyway,

Shawna  27:15

I consider myself a scholar practitioner. I do not subscribe to the whole academia thing, even though I'm quite the academic nerd, forever researching, writing and doing all this stuff. But I guess we do drop our little whatevers that make us feel because we know what makes us feel like we've achieved something, right? And

Rachel  27:35

also, people need the receipts. I'm sorry, but people need receipt because sometimes people try to play in your face and act like you did. Like, I actually have a master's degree with a 4.0 friend, like, do not try to play in my face right now. Do not let any of these, the tattoos and none of this, fool you. Friend, I am actually a quite intelligent person.

Shawna  27:50

You bring up something important. I mean, sometimes they do need the receipts because of those heuristics, whatever it is they're holding on to. That is that definition of what is executive presence? What is professionalism? I actually talk about that quite a bit, Rachel, because I have a lot of family members that are tatted all the way up, amazing. And it's like, and the piercings Island got my little one, then you worry, like, am I going to be accepted in the workplace or whatever? Because there's some idea. We don't have time today to start talking about the crown act and all of that. I'll put something in the show notes so you can look into it, but it's this idea of how our natural hair used to be a barrier. And I don't know, I don't want to put the wrong number, so I will put the link in the show notes. But I think it's up to 22 states that have adopted the crown act officially, so you cannot be discriminated against because of your hairstyle. Like, why would we penalize somebody for just the way they are and then the lifestyle choices they make and the esthetic that they want to have, whether it's tattoos or pink hair, I don't care, but there's this idea of professionalism, so I'm glad you brought it up. So maybe you do need to kind of drop a little something, something so they know, look, don't let these tattoos fool you. This is what you this what I got, and this is what I'm bringing. And what's important to you, actually, yeah, for sure,

CJ  29:07

what we've done in our business, and we've encouraged our clients to do, is to socialize norm of talking about biases, which is so politically incorrect. So you're speaking of hair color, we hire interns, and that's where all my biases come out, and so hair color, it doesn't matter. I got lots of biases for these interns. So there's one lady she had, like, all green hair. Like it looked really cool. But I was like, the client thing. And the first thing we did when we got off the call, so we don't talk about what we liked about the person or the interviewee, we we say, What was your bias? And I'm like, You know what my we that's what we do. The reason why we do that is we're saying, I'm acknowledging it number one, and please challenge. And I was like, Why does she talk so slow? Right? My business partner said, um, well, is it written in the application that she needs to talk with? Certain amount of words per minute. And I was like, Maybe we should put that in there. And then he said, So what's your story on the speech? I said, Well, if she talks slow, she's gonna work slow, and I like to get it right. And he goes, Okay, is that true? Or is that a story? No. And we'd be socialized to say we could talk about that. I might not been able to mitigate it, right? And if I didn't mitigate it, maybe we wouldn't have hired her. I would have made up a story in my head that this other person is better, or whatever it is, and not give that person an opportunity. Amazing. I

Shawna  30:31

love that. I love all of that. Are we allowed to use that? Mr. Gross, because that whole What was your bias is amazing. Yeah, that's that's such a great idea. Just get it out right now. What happens

CJ  30:45

when it's like, really, and you're in a group? The problem is, when someone says it and they've had no training, there's the lack of empathy. There's just, yeah, culturally, a hot mess, something bad's gonna happen. Yeah,

Shawna  31:01

and I hear you, that's quite an important caveat, that the training is necessary to know how to have those conversations. But it's it's neat. I haven't heard that before, just getting that right on out at the beginning.

31:22

I kind of

Shawna  31:37

shifting gears a little bit I know that in your book, and also in the conversation that took place when I was able to attend your your session last year, the concept of being a class migrant, so when they don't know what to expect, when they do sort of, and I'm doing air quotes here, move on, moving on. So like when they move, what happens? How do you handle something like that when you're like, Great, I'm in this position, this situation now, but I've never been in a situation like this before. Sure, what can you say about that?

CJ  32:10

Well, I think so. Just to identify a class migrant, a person who migrates from one class to another, person grows up in one socio economic class and moves to another one in their lifetime. So for example, both of my parents were what we might call working class or blue collar. Didn't have a degree, but were for the federal government. Had good jobs, but it didn't go to college, and so when I went to college, the rules were not talked about at the dinner table. The rules were not talked about as I did my homework. They talked about what I wanted to do after school. It wasn't assumed that I was going to go to college. It was just like you need to do something. So the rules were never taught to me. I knew the rules that I grew up in, but then when I got to corporate America, the rules were different. Okay, tell us what you mean by rules. Sure. So, okay, so what came to mind was golf, because I started golfing recently, like in the last couple of years, okay? And there's something called, like not walking across someone's line when they're about to put on the green. And I don't even know if this all makes sense, because if you don't play golf, what does that mean?

Shawna  33:12

Well, I'm catching that. There's

CJ  33:13

etiquette, there's etiquette, and I think that's the thing. And so when you walk across someone's line, it puts the indent into the green and it may make the ball go one way or the other, but it's not that they say it. They just don't say you're walking across my lot. They make a mental note you might not get an invitation to play, or if you are in a situation where and I'll come back to the workplace. But this came to mind. Yeah, we've had someone when I first start learning to play golf. I've had one of the managers of the Golf Association to come and to say, hey, we have some complaints about you. I thought he was calling to come in to say, hey, wanting food or something, right? Because they bring you food, he said. And we were my friend and myself, we were the only two people of color, and so automatically, that story starts to blow off. It's like, Wait a minute. And I was like, You came all the way out here to tell us that you know we we broke the rule, and it's an unspoken rule that it's called, play through when someone's when someone's behind you, you're supposed to let them play through, especially if they're faster than you, or if they know the rules.

34:22

No one teaches you that. When you get the golf clubs, they just send you out there, it'll tell you your money thing. And I think, yeah, they don't tell you

CJ  34:30

that. And so when you look at the in the workplace, right? For example, when I was, you know, doing work that would be considered as, you know, working class, right? There's a there's a certain dialog that you use, right? Yes, there are certain like, in certain community, there's certain handshakes that we do, right? And even the basic thing is the nod. I'm gonna give you one example. This is a really good one, because I paid attention to it. When you are walking in a community, like, I'll say, in a African American community, that's what I'm doing, because I identify getting that. Of American, the knot looks like this, the knot and it's up, and that means, what's up? Yep, right. But when you're in the workplace, the knot is down, and it means,

35:13

Hello, how are you hilarious? I totally know. I'm like, I know these

CJ  35:16

and so unconsciously, right? When you when you co switch. We don't have time to go when you are switching. You do it automatically, right and when? And here's the thing, on a subconscious level, our brains pick up whether you know, because if you know the nod up or down, then you know the rules, or at least we think you know the rules, and then you can start to, I shouldn't say infiltrate, but you can now

Shawna  35:43

be accepted. You assimilate in a way, you

CJ  35:47

assembly in a way. And so when I was I grew up right outside of Washington, DC, and I was not in Washington, DC for the longest time. I didn't go in because I was from the and so I remember going in, and I was like, you have to learn all these things. And I remember someone said, I don't trust that guy. He has khakis on khakis. It was like a thing, but in the office, it's khakis on you must know the rule, and it's all these hidden rules, how you wear your hair. We talked you talked about the crown Act, the handshake. You know, 123, let go. You know, looking someone in the eyes. Yeah, right, you do more than three, it's like, you're desperate. If you do less, it's like, it's quite simple.

36:27

Or you get the fish hand, which is so annoying, the fish hand, yeah, I've had people

CJ  36:31

saying that they would not hire someone if they had and I didn't even know they called it the fish. And, you know, was, I thought it was, it was gonna it was a male thing, but it wasn't. It was a bunch of people identify being a woman, say if a person, man or woman, gives it that. I mean, I had someone say that meant that they didn't have a good brain.

Rachel  36:49

Wow, interesting. You're talking about them well, as I have been watching bridgerton Lately, that where they came from is women would give you their hand to, like, kiss it, or whatever it's like, you know, something that's on tick tock is very demure, right? It's very it's very dainty, and so, and then nobody said I was actually an ex of mine. May He not listen to this. Actually chastised me for the way that I shake hands, because he was a Mason, and I shook there was, like, this secret thing they did as masons, and I had no idea, I just have a very firm, nice handshake. And he was like, You cannot do that, because it's this then the third and I was like, I'm not a part of this institution, this organization. But what I do know isn't is that my handshake has opened many a door for me as a woman who is not giving you the fish hand, like I'm shaking your hand with some sort of assertiveness. And he was like, all because of the secret society he was a part of. He was like, well, these are the rules of this society. I was like, well, y'all don't let me in, so it does not apply to me in this context. And it was wild. And I thought, I thought he'd be impressed, because, like, Oh, you don't do the little little girl fish hand, and now he's like, You can't shake hands like that.

CJ  38:03

One thing about the dainty handshake, I learned this in different countries. The more wealth you have, male or female, the lighter you shake the hand. Interesting.

Rachel  38:14

I never heard that one. Check it out, we're not adequately preparing our young people for that. You know, in my role as an employability skills instructor, these are some of the things that I teach 1819, 20 year olds about who are entering to the workforce and like you say something them, like, Don't text while you're on the floor, or make sure your uniform is neat. Or, like, you know, don't wear one of the examples was not wearing large earrings. I'm, I am a fan of a hoop earring that is probably

Shawna  38:41

a staple. It says, it says, Rachel,

Rachel  38:47

no, not designed back in the day, yes. But, you know, I'm of a certain age. Now, I was talking about, you know, hoop earrings, and the women looked at me kind of like, friend. Now be for real. And I was like, well, first of all, it is a safety hazard in the industry that you are in doesn't get good on somebody's clothes. Somebody could pull it, something like that. And again, it's one of these unspoken rules that it means something. And we've had this conversation again about like, well, who gets to decide what professional is, quote, unquote, and who gets to make those determinations? And in the meantime, between time, how do we get employed until we have sorted all of that out. And how do we have those conversations with people who nobody's told them? I received an email from a young person. It was just one run on sentence, and the way I read it was not the way she intended it. So it's some it said something along the lines of like, Hi, how are you still struggling with my login? And I read it as, Hi, how are you still struggling with my login? Oh, and she said, Hi, how are you I am still struggling with my login? Yeah, but the first way I read it, I had to stop myself and just step away from like that is not what she meant. But she just didn't know that you have to put punctuation in. And part of that, that etiquette, that professional etiquette, right? Right? Like she didn't know now, yeah, and so now you have the need for like, this type of role, because we know that there certain ways to expect it to show up in a professional environment that not all people have access to, right, explicitly, because they're not taught in school, right? So if it's not taught at your dinner table, then where do you get this information? Very true

Shawna  40:20

mentorship. Yeah, I think I was going to ask you a little bit about mentorship, because I know that that is something that's super important to you, super

CJ  40:27

passionate about, yeah,

Shawna  40:29

just tell us. Talk to us about it. So

CJ  40:32

in the book I write as a whole chapter in the book around mentoring, I call it mentoring the bridge to equity. So in the diversity equity, inclusion world is the equity part, and equity is a hard thing. I had someone say the other days, like, equity is like, you know the value you have in your home. I was like, that's not what we're talking about, Mike. We'll get back to you on that one. But equity is still hard because it really requires you to give a person a resource, and that resource is not always money. It could be time, it could be direction, it could be guidance. And so for me in my personal journey, at this point, a lot of people can access college, right? They can access certificates and training programs, as you mentioned, but the equity in mentorship is hard for people to access. Because, number one, I get this question all the time, where do I find a mentor? Yeah, I didn't know I needed a mentor. Yeah, where do I find a mentor? I think I have a mentor, but I haven't seen him in a year. Um, and there's all these conversations around it and so but when you start to look at people who are in the C suite, who are at the at a different level in the organization, all of them have, but most of them will acknowledge that they've received some type of formal mentoring, or mentoring from family members or from their first employer. And so mentorship is what I say. A mentor is a person who shines the light on opportunities that you can't see for yourself. You shine the light on stairs that will take you to the next level. Yeah, I'm, like, extremely passionate about, I don't believe that. I shouldn't say, I don't believe. I think it's really challenging where you want to get to in life, definitely in your career, if you don't have some type of informal or formal mentorship, formal mentorship, being very conscious about it will get you there faster. But of course, if you have people who come in your life to support you, you'll, you'll, you can eventually get there. So, um, yes, I'm super passionate about it, and of all backgrounds too, sure. What

Shawna  42:29

do you think about the idea of having an assigned mentor, like in some organizations, they will place someone with you, or pair some with you? Well,

CJ  42:37

no, I think you need to build some type of rapport. It's just like someone you've never met and they just come in, it's like, be your daddy now,

CJ  42:56

you know, so no, seriously though, I think when you when you it is kind of like that, right? It's like, this is going to be your guide. They know nothing about you. You know nothing about them. Have they been trained? Have you been trained? It could be really, you know, unfortunately, messy, and those relationships tend to lead in unsuccessful outcomes for the mentee, and can be very frustrating for both. So I don't agree with that. I think you should within your organization. You should first start with a mentorship culture. So because most organizations either don't have the resources, whether it's the time, the infrastructure, the people who want to be mentors, training for the mentors, they don't have a line item in their budget for like, it takes resources to create a mentorship program, a successful one that you can look at and measures and then are not going to be performative, right? It's just going to, like, we did this to check the box. And no one's ever met with their mentor like, except for the first day at the opening event. So I don't I think that mentorship culture is the first step that we believe in mentoring, and we mentor throughout the office, and it needs to start from leadership down. So leaders need to identify people and make sure they're reaching out and encouraging other people at different levels of organization to reach out to other people so everyone's getting this experience to say, Oh, I came in and I was wanting to learn about this project, because I worked on a new international program, and oh, Mike helped me with that. Oh, Mike helped you. Might help me too as well. And it's like, oh, let me help you. Before you know what everyone's kind of sharing and giving information, of course, when your organization has become larger, it can be more challenging, and that's when you need some type of codified plan or program to operationalize it. Yeah,

Shawna  44:35

I really appreciate you talking about the fact that training is needed here to just say, Here you go. You're going to be a mentor. Now, first of all, like, good luck, more than just frustration like that, Rachel, more than just frustration that can be bad outcome if you could send them the wrong way, like totally sour them, even on the organization itself, or just whatever that. Situation is, but I just think, like, how stressful it might be to the person who's supposed to be the mentor themselves, that they don't know what they're doing or how they're they feel like, oh, gosh, I have this responsibility. I don't know what I'm doing

CJ  45:10

here. They just walk past your your office, knock on the door. Hey, Jim, you're gonna be the mentor for CJ. Uh, He's new. You haven't met him yet. But right. Thank you. Right, right. It's like, it's like, I know people do this in HR for the hiring managers. Hey, I need you to jump in this, this meeting, this interview. You don't know what the job is about or anything. You haven't been prepped. You haven't been trained on how to do an interview. And for if you've ever been interviewed by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, if you don't know how to take control, it feels like this person is taking the ship down, and that's probably how mentoring feels. And prepared. Yeah, it's like, it's like, a horrible date, right? Like, what are we going to talk about? Like, what do we do here?

45:50

You're probably so, right? Like, that's true. You're both sitting there. Like, we're both here, we would

CJ  45:55

meet. So how's the weather? What school did you Oh, and they're just waiting for the Well, that's it for today. Call me number next week. Man, it's unfortunate, but it happens.

Shawna  46:07

And then next thing you know, it's been a year.

CJ  46:10

Mentorship Program is closed down. We know more. And so I've met people who've gone through those mentorship programs, and they don't believe in mentoring me, because they say I've done it and it didn't work. The company didn't support it, or mentors don't know how to mentor, or they were excluded. I mentored a young African American woman. I remember we were at a conference, and we were talking about getting lunch. There was a power differential that I didn't recognize, because I was in my in my glory. I'm I'm a mentor. I'm doing great. I'm helping this person with their life and all these different things. And I had a blind spot that this was a young woman and I'm a man, and I was talking about getting lunch, and I was like, why she had been so sheepish, and it was because she didn't know who was gonna pay for it. She didn't because I didn't give her any roles or anything. And then there was this, it was this whole thing. There were, I was, there was only two guys there, and it was only eight women, and was older African American woman who came over, who she can see. Obviously I respect it, because I, you know, she would joke with me, and you could just tell she was the she was a senior there, and it wasn't until she said, You know what, I don't think your intern. She said, It's from the intern, though your intern doesn't feel psychologically safe with you. I was like, Wow, are you kidding? I said, No, I'm just CJ. I'm a mentor. And she, I looked over in the mid what she says, what she says, interesting, right? Like, I didn't have words. And we, we talked for about an hour after that about internship. And then we got to the point where she said, and another thing, it was going on in the books, like, and another thing, she's like, I don't like being called an intern because I'm actually doing consultant work. And if you keep calling me an intern, I put that on my resume, then people only want to hire me because I'm only an internship. I should be a consultant. Wow. So she became a consultant. We, all we did was change her her, um, title. That led to her getting her dream job. Wow. And now I talk to her every quarter, just like the update. But if that person wasn't there to create psychological safety because of the racial, not racial, the gender difference and the power difference, I would have never known. I would have been going off and say, I'm a mentor. We're both people of color. We're both we should, we should understand that, but I'm I'm missing something, and that's that can, that could fail when it comes to mentoring. Yeah.

Shawna  48:24

Now that's a very, that's a very powerful example. There's probably a lot of folks who wouldn't consider something like that. So no, absolutely, wow. Well, we are kind of coming up on the hour here. I just wanted to open it up and ask you, CJ, if there's anything you know that you think our listeners would appreciate knowing, or something else you'd like to share that maybe I didn't ask you specifically. Well,

CJ  48:48

there's so much. I think it's important to understand that as you expand your zip code story, you are pushing, you are pushing the edge of your envelope, and what that means is you are going to the edge of what you think, who you think you are, your your story, and you are bringing to life the reality around you. And that can be uncomfortable. I can feel alienate. You can feel alienated from a group that you are used to being around and sharing in your life with as you rise through the ranks, class migrants see you see that a lot, whether it's in people who have become successful, like I follow some of the rappers, you know, they're still rappers, but they've they're now buying businesses and football teams and things of that nature. And you hear the stories I had to change the people I hang around. It's very uncomfortable. So I would say, get used to what we say. We like to say, get comfortable with discomfort. And that's talking to different people from different backgrounds, going to do different things. We say there's three, three areas that you can focus on to expand your zip code story, which is meeting new people, going to different places and trying new things. You don't have to jump out of airplane, right? It helps as you because what happens is, and it's a challenging concept to understand, those. Experiences allow you to have different conversations with different people from different backgrounds, which opens doors for you, which then puts you in a position that you might not have been able to reach just by yourself, just by your own accomplishments, even with your 4.0 GPA, right? So I'm bringing it all back around.

50:19

Sure, is he felt a little hurt,

CJ  50:23

though, right? But I think that would be the main point of the book. Is to really and the work around the zip code story really is to expand your zip code story, because it not only allows you to have a bigger story yourself, but it also allows you to empathize for people who have a different zip code story than you. So for example, as you rise through the ranks, I've seen this in companies, people who are at the individual level, contributor level, will complain about managers, middle managers, middle managers will complain about the people at the individual contributor level and the C suite. And then when you start rising through, you say, Oh, I see it differently here now, because I'm at a different elevation. And so I guess the goal is to just continue to elevate in all things that you do, yeah,

Shawna  51:04

yeah. I would say even one thing to consider, and we didn't talk about this much in today's conversation, but the idea of intersectionality, where, oh yes, we have all these not just your zip code, story of where you're from and the culture that you grew up with or that you're most familiar with, but also these other things that you bring with you, and these things can change, like right now, y'all, I'm feeling what it feels like to be a woman, to be a woman of color, but also to be a woman of color over 40. So duality that right? And just like your zip code, story, isn't necessarily fixed, these other aspects of our identities aren't necessarily fixed, but they can definitely overlap. So that's a thing that kind of comes to mind for me. Rachel, what stood out for you today?

Rachel  51:50

Yeah, I there's a lot that I'm resonating with as you know, we go back into our mutual communities and do the service work that all of us do, and keeping these things in mind when you are interacting with folks, whether it be at work or in your communities, is that everybody has a story that we don't know, and we make a decision, like we talked about at the top of the hour, where it's like you look at somebody make decisions about them based on how they're dressed, how they present age wise, how they present racially, how they present as a certain gender. And then you begin to crystallize that when you really need to be more curious and inquisitive and ask more questions, so that you are not rooting your decision in your own bias, implicit or otherwise for sure.

Shawna  52:35

Well, before we wrap Do you want to give any shout outs or tell listeners where they can find you and all the great stuff you're doing. You

CJ  52:42

know, people can find me in two locations, the www, dot ascension worldwide.com, and also CJ gross talks.com and I'm also on LinkedIn. It's Christopher, CJ

Shawna  52:57

gross, and I'll link everything so folks can find

53:00

easy there, too. Thank you so much, absolutely, and thank you.

Shawna  53:05

Thank you for spending this time with us. I think that these are conversations that people haven't been having, but can definitely benefit from. So y'all first go buy the book, like you have to have buy the book, and then also, these are some really great concepts that I hope that folks can apply in their everyday even if it isn't in the workplace. There's a lot here that we can think about. So appreciate you. Thanks for sharing all this with us.

CJ  53:29

I appreciate both Ian as well. Thank you, Ray, thanks shot. Thank

53:42

you. Thanks

Shawna  53:44

for hanging out with us today. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode. CJ has so much to offer, so interesting, and has really great ideas. So yeah, go check out his book. You have to You're gonna learn so much. And speaking of books, I have been doing a little bit of hinting, a little bit of teasing. There is a project underway. I can't wait to tell you more about it. So stay tuned for that. I'm so excited, and I think it's something that is going to be super useful to folks in workplaces everywhere, no matter what you do. And don't forget, you can also message me directly using the link in the show notes. Please do I want to know what you're thinking about, what topics you might have in mind, and even if you're interested in being a guest, or you know somebody else who would be great as a guest, send it my way. Send me your thoughts in the meantime, be safe out there. Y'all. Be kind to folks. Share a smile with someone, and if you get the opportunity, please do make someone feel welcome. Love y'all. I'll be talking to you soon. You.