Join Carmen and me as we talk about our experiences, what we've learned, and the takeaways from Season 3.
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
Join Carmen and me as we talk about our experiences, what we've learned, and the takeaways from Season 3.
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
Intro 00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Sean can join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.
00:22
Hey, Carmen, How you feeling?
Carmen 00:24
Good? I am. I'm not gonna lie. I am a little emotional. At first thought of this being our last episode together.
00:34
It's pretty crazy.
00:35
I know, I don't know how we made it.
00:38
into this, I'm like,
00:40
Oh, yeah, yeah,
Shawna 00:42
it's been so good. Having you with me this season,
Carmen 00:46
it has been, honestly, I think one of the best experiences of my life. Like there's so much behind it getting to hear so many different stories, getting to kind of see the normalization of being mixed race experiencing that not only, you know, as a young woman, but as someone who's getting to learn from people who maybe they're my age, maybe they're a little bit older, maybe they're a parent, maybe they're not a parent, like it's given me, I think, a much larger understanding of these different points in our lives. You know, one thing that I walk away with as well is this notion that you've really kind of ingrained in me is that this is an ongoing journey, kind of this journey of like self awareness and self realization, when it comes to AR, or mixed illness. It's not a one time kind of one milestone type thing. It's not like, Oh, you know, by this age, by motherhood, I was completely, you know, fully aware of who I was as this mixed race woman or things like that. And so that's been, I think, probably the coolest thing to gather from all this.
Shawna 01:43
You know, it is so true, though, right? Like, there's not just one milestone, and there's not even really milestones. It's just kind of like road signs.
Carmen 01:53
Yeah. Like, like, you're on the highway. And there's like, directions here,
Shawna 01:57
directions there. Right? Like, you know, you're know, you're getting closer, but then there's a detour or I don't know, it's just it's not the same path for everybody. And different points of realization come at different times for for everyone. And actually, you were talking about, you gave the example of it's not like, you know, become mother and then realize, actually the opposite, almost like becoming a mother and then being like, Oh, what's this mean for my kids? Yeah, you know what it means, but then it's not the same. And then as they grow, you know, that kind of changes, too. So,
Carmen 02:32
yeah. And I think like, that's something that's come up a few times, I think, throughout the season is there's people who said they have children who are kind of either fully grown, or in their late teen years, where it sounds like their conversations happening now, that did not necessarily come to mind when their children were younger. And, you know, I'm, I turned 25 this year, and there are conversations I'm having now with my family that I think, you know, we didn't necessarily have all the words for when we were younger, and like when I was a child, for instance, like, I'm able to self describe when it comes to my own identity. And I think there's power in that. And, you know, like, we were always encouraged when we were younger, I think, to kind of navigate what it meant to be x, y, Zed for ourselves. It was never like, Oh, this is what it means. And that's what you should think it means. But now I feel comfortable kind of just, there's like a sense of ownership of it. I think there's a difference between like, knowing you are these things, and then really embracing like, Hey, this is who I am testing.
Shawna 03:33
So this season's theme was about care and wellness. But it did so much also encompass family, even to his family. Yeah, I guess that's just the thing, right? Like family is always going to be kind of interwoven into these themes, I think. Yeah. Or just, you know, you're the people who are part of who you are. Yeah, who have had some influence in one way or another. So yeah, well, actually, you know, you kind of talked about having conversations with your family and things. And that makes me think of a few of these episodes. And I guess I'd like to ask you, were there any particular episodes that stood out to you more than others?
Carmen 04:17
Yeah, there are, there are a number I think, first and foremost, one of the coolest experiences of my life was being able to have my dad on this show. And it sounds like you know, an easy answer. But I think again, it's a testament to the fact that like, these conversations, it's not just like, you reach a point where like, yeah, like it is what it is like, my dad is in his 50s. You know, he's in his mid 50s. I'm in my mid 20s. And there are conversations, I think, where we now have the words or their social descriptors for events or phenomena, even just things like systemic racism, I don't know that those words would have been possible to kind of come across as easily when we were younger, especially when my dad was young. And so to kind of see and hear and Experience him on the show as a guest, he is someone who is mixed, you know, and I'm obviously someone who's mixed like that was it was really interesting to me. And I think family, like you said to me, like there's such a strong relationship between family and well being. And I think the steps we take to take care of ourselves as individuals, and then how that's interconnected with the steps, the people around us take to take care of themselves as individuals, because it's all connected, I think, in my mind. And he talked a little bit of thinking that episode about, it started out as a cathartic experience to kind of write down his experiences and encounters with racism, whether it was, you know, direct or indirect, or conscious or unconscious forms of othering, and racism. And I think that opened up a bit of a deeper level of conversation between all of us, because there's this level, I think of shame and discomfort for some people who have experienced racism, like we almost don't want to tell the full story of an encounter, because we're like, it's really rough. Like, I don't know, if you can handle this type thing, you know, we're embarrassed. But being able to put it all out there, I think allowed us to have ongoing conversations, you know, late and not in a way that we didn't before. But it's, it's hard to describe, like being able to talk about, like, Hey, here's how, you know, we we look at what this means now, like, say that happened to him in the 90s. Now we know we have the words for it in 2021.
Shawna 06:22
I wouldn't say that it was an easy answer. I mean, it's a very appropriate answer, not only because of how interesting it was, and to hear you both share this experience with one another, but also, that's the first time you spoke English, literally. Yeah, we're
Carmen 06:34
speaking a different language.
Shawna 06:36
Yeah. You know, as you as you were saying, like, I think that we wouldn't have had the words I was like, literally. Yeah. You didn't speak English beforehand. So I think that that in itself is a cultural experience, and just was so fitting actually, for the occasion, I learned a lot from your dad, I don't know if you remember. But in the episode, we actually had a small, I don't want to say difference of opinion. But he had a different way of framing a situation than I would have. And it was important to hear that, you know, even if we have some similar experiences, it doesn't mean that one approach, or one frame of mind is right, or wrong. You know, I think that was really, really good. And I just the story with your dad, and the fact that he just laid it all out there. Here's my experience. You know, one of the things that you said, I think was that it can be hard to talk about, because it's like heavy, or it could be did you say that? It could be embarrassing or something? Yeah,
Carmen 07:39
I think sometimes there is a bit of embarrassment around it. There could be
Shawna 07:43
but I was also thinking it's hard because well, on one hand, maybe you think not enough people would really get it. So what's the point? And then also, sometimes, I don't know if you would find this to be the case. But sometimes when I think things are, are one way I start to second guess myself, like, was that really a slight? Was that really racist? Was that really a microaggression? Um, so less about for me, it's less about embarrassment. And more about me second guessing myself, or always wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of calling it out? Yeah. And net episode, you also reminded us of the story with your teacher and yeah, that had to get called out. And,
08:26
yeah,
Shawna 08:26
I think that in itself is hard sometimes, too.
Carmen 08:29
I think so too, because I think like I see it. I don't know if other people see it this way. But I see it as like, sometimes we like we don't have the confidence to fully assert ourselves in situations where we're like, harm was done to me. Like I think sometimes we have this mental block because we're like, oh, it could have been an accident. Maybe they didn't mean it and like, okay, that's true. It could be an accident. Maybe they didn't mean it. But like harm was still done, whether it was intentional or not. But I think sometimes the flip side to that is like, we have this internal kind of kerfuffle, where we're like, Well, what do I do about it? Like, what's my, you know, it's like, you almost take it on for yourself. And this is one thing I've actually worked on in counseling is to kind of re frame things. It's not like, what did I do to cause this? or What did I do to kind of not prevent this from happening, but like, okay, it's the awkwardness and the weight of that isn't actually on me. Like someone's saying, this actually happens quite a bit is like, one thing I hear is, oh, you look so exotic. Or like, Oh, you look so whatever. And it's awkward and uncomfortable, I think in some situations, because like, I know the person saying it. I don't think they've ever said it in a way where it's meant to be harmful. Or like, they're not like they usually mean it as a con. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's not they're not seeing it as like a trying to be triggering or trying to be upsetting or things like that. They mean, you know, like you've got dark hair, you've got dark eyebrows, like you know, you're, you look so interesting. But the thing behind it is that like you don't look like you're from Hear You don't look right fit in here. And it's like, you don't belong here or like, some kind of weird racial math type thing.
Shawna 10:09
You don't I mean, yeah, I do, because that goes right back to the whole Western European look as being the default. Yeah. Yeah. It's like exotic means different, right? Like, not have Yeah, kind of vision driving. So if I look exotic to you, then what does that mean is set as the norm. So, I hear you exactly. And it's like, in those situations, you know, like, it's
Carmen 10:32
awkward, because it's like, I feel like I am using I statements, I feel like in those situations, I'm like, there's this awkward balance between, like, I know, this person meant to do well, but what they're saying is actually harmful. And it's kind of like, what I've learned to do is just push the awkwardness back, like, I don't actually need to take on that physical, emotional, oh, like, I don't need to feel that tension inside me. Like, it's kind of just like, you know, in some cases, you could say to someone like, Oh, thanks, like, you know, I know, I look different, but like, I feel beautiful, or something like that. And it's, like, awkward to get used to. But I think it's kind of just like gently giving someone the opportunity to reframe their language. I don't know. Like, I think it's when you have the energy, it's doable, like it's still like a navigate.
Shawna 11:15
That's such a good thing to say when you have the energy because right, we do have a finite amount of energy, we have a finite amount of self control. Yeah, yeah. And all of those things matter. I mean, you're right, like there are times where I'll probably come up with the most appropriate response. And other times, I'm like I could have done without the cynicism or whatever. Although I have to say, I think that those times are infrequent. It usually is just like when, usually if it's paired with I'm tired, or there's other things and saying something like you look so exotic. It's like, I heard you say like, you could respond with like, Thank you or something. But it's like, to me, I guess that it's meant as a compliment. But I also don't want to make that assumption. Yeah. So you know, like saying, Thank you beans. I'm taking it as a Yeah. But but at the same time, I think my go to, for something like that is usually like, Oh, you think so? Why is that? Yeah. And then it gives them the chance to explain what it is about me? Because, and I usually also have my other fallback is Oh, I know, I usually confuse people and probably heard me say that on the show. Or they assume that I'm mixed black white or something like that. Yeah.
Carmen 12:26
Well, I remember you telling me that story when you got vaccinated. And
12:29
yeah, it's like a black and white, or black or something. And you're like, hey,
Shawna 12:34
he goes, do you mind me asking? What's your race? I think he said race versus ethnicity or something. I don't remember the moment that I said black and he goes, Okay, black and white. You're like, holy, I did not even like take that off. Yeah, yeah. So I think just giving people the opportunity to describe what it is that they're trying to put together. And there Yeah, in terms of categorizing you, because yeah, again, that's part of human nature.
Carmen 13:06
I think I think we do that quite a bit. Because I think sometimes where we default to almost like needing a binary, it's like this or that, you know, and it's like, but it's because we're conditioned to think that it's like, it's so simple. And it's like, but in reality, it's you know, it doesn't have to be right, I did an interview or like a super brief interview with the equity and inclusion office at my university. And they were like, okay, what's one thing you know, you you want to share that you want to put out there? And I thought about it. And I think one thing that this show has taught me, and one thing that's really been on my mind, and this last year, and like, kind of specifically this last year, is this idea, like we need to stop looking at rights as a zero sum game. Like it's not, you know, according rights and acknowledging the oppression of x group, doesn't mean we're not listening to another group, it doesn't mean that we're not continuing the fight for the recognition and rights of another group. Because I think sometimes what happens is like we fall into this narrative, as a society where we say, Well, if we only recognize so and so right now, then we're leaving out all these other people. And it's like, no, we're not, though. Like, we're just we're using this right now, in this moment to acknowledge that there is a massive deficit when it comes to recognizing this particular group and showing up and standing up for this particular group, literally all the time. Right. And, you know, I think we all speak for myself. I've seen that in the last year when it comes to empowering or the empowerment and kind of the recognition that specifically like black communities, and some African American communities are getting because it's like, there's this tension, I think, sometimes and it's like that that tension, I don't think is a result of people who actually want the liberation of other people. It's like, well, no one wants to be the last one to get their rights recognized or things like that. And it's like, but we don't need to feel like it's doing this as at the cost of another Like I think specifically, you know, myself as an Asian woman or woman of mixed ancestry who is Asian, you know, people saying the last little while, like, will I want so and so just show up with the same energy that they use to show up for the Black Lives Matters protest for, you know, standing up to anti Asian racism. And while I understand that that's rooted in people wanting allies to show up and do the work, I think we risk falling into this category of like, you did this for them, you need to do it for me. And it's like, micro othering, I think. And it worries me a little bit because I'm like, I understand that it's rooted in again, wanting support and recognition. But it's like, but showing up for x group, x group is not shouldn't be on the hook, because people showed up for them, you know, and like, it's one thing that's been on my mind, and I don't know how fully I've kind of stretched out that thought, but I think I'm still in the process of it. Right?
Shawna 15:53
It is definitely something to think about. It's an argument that I've heard in these times, as we are seeing so much in terms of social unrest, and more, you know, push for like chess. Yeah, it seems ridiculous that you'd have to do that. But I think there is sort of struggle on one hand, I think there's a lot of solidarity among people. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But I've also heard what you're saying, like, where people feel like, Wait a second, I've been there for you, I want you to be there for me, you know, or my community. You know, I was talking with someone and they were like, this person is of Asian descent. And she said, You know, I have educated myself so much about the things that the black community in America has faced. I've read the history, I pay attention to what's going on. I've learned about, you know, the people who have been influential in history. And in present times I've, I've learned about the people who have been wronged. But how many people in the black community can say the same about my community? And I think, you know, that's something to consider. So I think it's more than just like, who's going to be out in the streets with you? I think it goes deeper.
17:14
Yeah, no,
Shawna 17:15
we've been asking people who are not people of color to educate themselves. But are we educating ourselves about each other?
Carmen 17:24
Yeah, it's interesting, because it's true, like, as a woman of color, like, I am not aware of the daily oppression struggles, you know, in and out of a black woman, say, for instance, but I do think it is my job to learn, it's like, just because, you know, I am part of the banner of like, bipoc, being black, indigenous, you know, persons of color doesn't mean that I get it like that I you know, get it, like big picture, get it? Right, I think that there are similars, similar kind of, or similarities between what I would experience and women under that banner being black, indigenous, or persons of color. But I think like, I remind myself when I'm writing, and what I'm reading and things like this, and when I'm critiquing things is it's like, my fight, if you will, is against racism, white supremacy, and like the weight of the patriarchy. So when I feel like, frustrated, for instance, in a situation where I feel like I put the work in, why can't you put the work in to learn, it's not personal, my frustration isn't personal with that person. It's about the accessibility of, say, Asian stories, Asian women being represented, because it's like, the stories are out there. But I think what happens is like, from a historical standpoint, for instance, we get left out we being women, we being women of color, we being women under the black indigenous persons of color banner, we get left out. And so the accessibility of those stories, like we have to put work into find them. And I think sometimes I have to remind myself, it's like, I'm not annoyed with you, as an individual. I'm not annoyed with you. I'm not let down by you, you know, as someone who's a fellow member of the bipoc community, but like, what can we do to make narratives like mine more accessible, so you can learn and so that you can see, like, the truth behind it, it's not just this overemphasize thing about violence or racism against Asian Americans, or Asian Canadians, like this is real. This is every day. And I've had conversations like this with people who are close to me, and it's like, maybe this is something I'll end up writing about in my thesis or something. But I do think like, we have to sometimes be mindful of the concept of like, lateral violence, whether that is I doubt that it's physical, but I think like emotional and maybe psychological or social violence, like kind of being very aware of that concept, when we get into these conversations, or, you know, disagreements about like, Hey, I showed up for you, you show up for me, because it's the people who we say that too. I think of the last two weeks there have been more police killings like there have been, you know what I mean? So it's like, I can't be like, Well, why didn't you show up for me when you are still grieving the fact But the system, this is still left up, you know, it's still messed up. It's still like, causing destruction of communities. So like, that's kind of how I try to see it. Right. But yeah,
Shawna 20:12
yeah. Um, you also talked about, I guess, like, how do we get messages across, you know, how do we continue to have these conversations? And one thing that wasn't meant to be a theme, but also kind of turned up this season. Whereas we had a lot of folks in the media. Yeah. as guests. You know, we kicked off the season with Cedric Yeah. Sky city, you know, he's got his show, you know, also a photographer telling stories that way. Also, do you remember the powerful conversation with Richard Pierre? Yes, yeah. And his film. He was with us. We also talked to the cast of blasian. Yeah. And so yeah, all these folks, you know, using their arts, it was like mixed history.
Carmen 20:58
I guess. It's not necessarily in the media, but they have that project.
Shawna 21:01
Yeah. So they're, they've got their blog, their digital presence to sharing their stories. And there was the episode mixed up school days with Maurice Lyrica, he and I talked about our experiences living abroad. And you know, in school, like being, you know, our days in school, but then also, he's got a project now where he helps mixed couples tell their story, yeah, gives kind of workshops, and, and he has his online community where people can share. So you know, I guess, you know, looking at these folks, those are ways that we can continue this dialogue in an artful way, not just these kinds of conversations, although I value them. But it's nice to see these different ways that might resonate with other folks. Yeah, in terms of the mixed experience, or the racially ambiguous experience. And for me, I
Carmen 21:48
think the emphasis is like on representation, and not just, you know, like, in front of the camera, but behind it, because it's like, for instance, when you have people like Richard Pierre, like, that impacts the way that he's able to tell stories. And so I think it's like, I remember, I think we talked about it briefly, but like, you know, the Oscars so white thing last year, and that there were kind of this revamped, I don't know that they're necessarily rules, but guidelines that studios and production teams and things like that would try and have, and it wasn't just for actors, it was like, people who are working on set, like people who are writing, like, the tech side of things as well. And I think like, it's, I really think like, it's all interconnected, you know, like, it's, it's hard to isolate and say like, oh, by doing this one thing, you know, we'll kind of normalize the fact that not everyone is Caucasian, or Western European looking. Like I think it's it's this huge web
Shawna 22:42
like that. If you aren't that this is like a reserve role. Yeah, exactly. And we know it's possible. I mean, look at Hamilton.
22:50
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Shawna 22:52
So or there's the Harry Potter isn't there? Like, I think there was a Harry Potter production where her my people lost their minds.
23:01
Like, yeah, like you cannot one nice thing without.
23:06
This is why we can't have
23:09
like, what have you done?
Shawna 23:12
Yeah, but it's because we form those things in our mind. Right. That's the whole idea of schema, you think something has to be a certain way? Yeah. And look, people like, we just keep messing up those boxes that they want to put people I know,
Carmen 23:25
it's like, oh, it's like, like, Dodge Dipdive. Like it's like, I can invade your very plans.
Shawna 23:32
But yeah, you know, it's we like to throw a wrench in things, okay. It's just the way Yeah, it's, it's good to be a disrupter in that way. Just for being you just, you know, just being makes, you
Carmen 23:44
know, I like that. I want to get, like put on a T shirt.
Shawna 23:49
phrase, distance means disrupt. Yeah,
Carmen 23:51
I love that. But it's true, like so this is, I don't know, it's really quite well known in Canada, even among like non Asian communities. But there's a show called Kim's convenience. I doubt many of our American listeners might know of it, but it is genuinely, I think one of the best things I've ever seen in my life. You know, acemoglu, if you're listening, I've had a crush on you. But anyway, so it's this show, and it's all Chinese and Korean actors. And it's the story of this convenience store in Toronto. And I watched the series finale the other day, and I think they were on season five, season four or five. And it made such an impact on so many people. Like just you could read the comment section on any article about it. And it's interesting because it's not like this grandiose like kind of crazy rich Asians story where people are like, yeah, I want to live like that. You know, they own a convenience store and they're immigrants to Canada and they, they speak to their children a mixture of English and Korean their children are grown. But it's interesting because it it's like, so ridiculously normal, like their life is you know, they're not wealthy. They're not like You know, the heirs to some kind of dynasty like they're not. There's it's interesting, like I don't find the stereotypes in it like I don't see stereotypes in them I see a lot of like real lived experiences and it's phenomenal and it was so sad when I read that it was ending like that was Oh, yeah, so it's so it's ending but like going back to the representation thing, like this was one of those things on TV where for myself, and I think, like my dad, for instance, it meant so much to see it and to see it just be so normal. It wasn't like, someone wasn't a caricature. They weren't there as a joke. They weren't there as like this awkward tokenistic like the studio made us hire, you know, a diversity type thing.
25:40
Right.
25:41
But like, I
Carmen 25:42
just I think of things like that. And I love that it's becoming normal to just tell normal stories.
Shawna 25:48
No kidding. I love that too. And just as an aside, I haven't seen it but I just added it to my list and is on it. Here's the the description it says while running a convenience store in Toronto, members of a Korean Canadian family deal with the customers each other and the evolving world around them. So check it out, guys. I'm gonna check it
Carmen 26:05
out. Check it out. It's I love it.
Shawna 26:08
I think that's cool. I think you've heard me say, Oh, no, it's playing.
26:15
Just a plug for the CBC right
26:16
here c mu, please.
Carmen 26:22
Replace the main guy. That's why I met him once in person and I I almost fainted.
26:29
Alright, now,
Shawna 26:30
let's see, we'll see who we can get this episode to so we can get your shout out to the right ear.
Carmen 26:36
I'm like shot on post this on every platform.
26:41
Right.
Shawna 26:43
So let's see what else?
Carmen 26:45
Well, you know, when I think back a little bit, I think the conversation between Meredith and Sydney, Paloma and Lauren, as well. Like, I think that's pretty interesting. Because you have these different dynamics happening at the same time, I think, you know, it's hard to not say intersectionality when living or witnessing a situation like this, because it's like you have Lauren's experiences growing up and how that differs from resistors. And then you have, like Cindy and Meredith and raising their children. And I think kind of having those conversations with their children not only about race, but also like about representation and sexuality. I think that's, it's, it's quite important, I think, because it's like, there is no one normal, you know what I mean? Like, there's no like one, here it is. That's it. That's what this family's going to look like. And it's, I think it's reassuring in a way to see how much diversity there is within an already diverse group. Because it's like, nothing is going to be so simple that it can't kind of have multiple stories going on at once. And I think that's the beauty of intersectionality when we look at it, because all these things are existing at once and all these things kind of intertwine and meet at these different intersections. Yeah, I
Shawna 27:58
mean, there we go again, right. We're back to families and what those conversations are, like, in the different households and how they're addressed, I guess.
28:08
Yeah.
28:09
Let me ask you. What's next for you?
28:11
Oh, my gosh, Ah,
Carmen 28:14
that's a good question. Well, I mean, like, I am about to move. I am starting grad school in the fall. Yeah,
28:21
yeah.
Carmen 28:22
And I think like, it's one of those interesting things where, like, I get to go back and do more research on intersectionality and intersectional. feminism. And I'm excited like I'm life feels good. The sun is out. You know, it's like I'm single Summer is here. Like it's gonna be great. I'm excited for this.
Shawna 28:43
Wow, summer is right there, isn't it? It's crazy to think about I know I can't believe it. I can't wait. I was just going like how the new Yeah, you're like,
28:52
I'll shovel the walkway. Don't worry. Crazy. Yeah, I wore shorts today. Well,
28:58
oh, well, I
Shawna 28:59
didn't get there. I'm wearing a sweater today, actually, but it's supposed to be much one shot. I don't tell the sun was out though, after the rain went away. No, listen, I am so thrilled for you that you're going back to school. I'm hoping that by the time you are starting this fall, I'll be rapping Oh, my goodness, y'all dissertation a no joke, but I am excited to be heading towards the finish line of this doctoral program. But a lot of what I'm studying and working on in my writings, has encompassed much of what we have heard described for our guests. And yeah, looking forward to making it official and getting things published in that way as well. When I read those papers, the police on them. Well, hopefully, you know, there's more to come. There's there's so much more to explore. So this is one step by him. Well anyway, I guess we better close. I can't believe it's the last app. I
Carmen 30:06
know. I'm like I promised myself I wasn't getting
30:10
one. Here we are.
Shawna 30:13
Yeah. Well, listen, you are welcome back anytime, just as you saw, like Jason came back and Shannon Yeah. So there's those opportunities. But I think for season three, it's a wrap. It's a wrap. I
Carmen 30:29
want one of those like little director things, so I can go like
Shawna 30:35
all right, well, best of luck to everything that you do, you and I just thank you again,
Carmen 30:42
thank you, you know, like, I'm here I am, I want to cry. But like, thank you. This really has been, I think one of the most, like fruitful, interesting, fulfilling experiences I've had so far. And I think just the vulnerability and the openness of a lot of our guests. Like, it's, it's like, I want to thank them too, because without them, like, I wouldn't have learned in the same way. And, you know, I look back on this past year, and it has been, I think, a process of like racial awakening for a lot of people aren't getting to experience that alongside being part of this podcast. It's really been. It's kind of been like therapeutic, I think, in a way.
Shawna 31:25
So I'm just really glad to have had this opportunity to be able to do this. Yeah. Thank you so much.
31:36
Well, I know that we'll be okay. Yeah.
Carmen 31:39
I'll be like shot. I'm in DC. I've been vaccinated. I'm ready.
Shawna 31:42
Hey, girl, I'll be like, have you guys opened your borders yet? I got my shots. I'm coming.
Carmen 31:48
Like knocking on my apartment. I'm like, Who's
31:50
shown up? We're gonna do Canadian Thanksgiving. Take supposed to come see you last year. All right. Well, I'm gonna close this out.
Shawna 32:01
You take care of yourself. I know. We'll be in touch. Yes, we will. Again, bye
32:04
for now.
32:05
Bye for now.
Shawna 32:33
Well, it's hard to believe. But that's it for this episode. And this season. Thank you all so much for being wonderful listeners for always being so encouraging and for being along for the ride. I hope that you've gotten just as much out of this experience as Carmen and I have. And there's so much more out there. Don't forget to talk to folks to learn more about other people and what's going on in their lives. We've got to expand our universe. You know what I mean? We've got to call it a wrap for this season. But I do hope that until next time, you're out there being safe, be safe. Please share a smile with someone. And always, always find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Thanks so much, everyone. love y'all. And I'll talk to you soon.
33:33
You've been listening to our true colors.