This week we are back with Part 2 of the interview with Amy Daniels. If you missed Part 1, you can check it out here. In this episode, Amy and I continue our conversation about her lived experiences as a Korean woman who was adopted by White parents and what it's meant moving through spaces where people around you have certain expectations about your identity. We talk about her experiences dating, the "Guest Pass", and even the importance of names.
For Further Exploration
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
This week we are back with Part 2 of the interview with Amy Daniels. If you missed Part 1, you can check it out here. In this episode, Amy and I continue our conversation about her lived experiences as a Korean woman who was adopted by White parents and what it's meant moving through spaces where people around you have certain expectations about your identity. We talk about her experiences dating, the "Guest Pass", and even the importance of names.
For Further Exploration
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
Transcript by otter.ai
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.
00:22
Hello, hello, everybody. Welcome
Shawna 00:24
back to another episode of our true colors. Yolandie is not with me this week, but she will be back in a few more weeks, she is enjoying her little one. This episode is actually the second part of a two part interview with my good friend, Amy Daniels. Amy is a master recruiter in the DC metro area. And she has been sharing her story with me, of her lived experiences being a Korean woman who was adopted by white parents and grew up in a primarily white neighborhood, white school and so on. In the second part of the interview, and the second part of her interview, he talks with me about dating, we talk about the guest pass, and we start talking about names, all of these really interesting things that absolutely play a part into our identities and who we are. So sit back, relax, and enjoy part
Shawna 01:17
two. Okay, well, let me ask you about something. So we talk about identity a lot. And one of the questions that comes up in the DEI training that I do, or actually when I'm just working with people, you know, I want them to think about themselves in terms of their own identity, particularly for white folks, because for a very long time, whiteness wasn't even acknowledged as a race or as a culture. Everything outside of whiteness was ethnic, sort of like everything else that falls out of that, right. It's kind of like when you go to the store and all the black haircare products are segregated from the others, or
01:57
just like all the international food and and the International styling, the International. We're just gonna lump everybody you get one aisle.
Shawna 02:04
Yeah, exactly. Right. So you know, it's bizarre. So if you're an other or if you've been othered, you know it because you know, I think about W EB Dubois who talked about the double veil of consciousness, it's a Tunis, right, you totally know who you are as a person. You recognize who you are as a person, you see your body, you know, your characteristics, but then you also recognize how you're perceived and viewed by others through their lenses of whatever that is, or the default. Yes. And you recognize, like, that's not like me, I mean, not like me, Shauna, but a person, one person will say this, and I could think about this as they're considering how they're being viewed, right? Like, there's this whiteness, which is the default and everybody else who's different color or people of color. And that term, by the way, POC, there's been a lot of discussion about that, you know, POCs, who sees bipoc, like, I'm still even working out where I fall in this how much I want to use these terms. But what I want to ask you is about, you know, you growing up in family, and white neighborhood, white family, predominantly white school, and so on. When do you think you first recognized that double veil, like who you are versus the folks who are around you, like, this is an identity, but there's a different
03:21
Oh, God, it was early, it started around the same time that when when you get the name calling all names, right? That is when you then take on the Okay, this is not acceptable. So therefore, I am going to look and act as white as I possibly can. Or if the situation calls for it, I turn on more of the Asian it was performative at times, like, we want you to be Asian now, you know what it was like? It's like I've told you before, it's like at the restaurant, that's where I'm like, oh, lights comfortable, because they're out of their comfort zone. Right? And it's like, we're gonna hide behind Amy, like, Amy's our spokesperson, she's all things Asian, we defer to you. But when we're not in that setting, then it's, you know, whitewash Ami. That's when the code switching takes place. But when you said there is like, the new the tune, yeah, there's, you know, the double veil, the double veil. That's a completely different narrative of interaction to
Shawna 04:28
Yeah, but like, white people in America don't have to do that. No, no, there's many things. Yeah. But I mean, like in terms of identity for so long, white folks did not even see themselves as any race because it was just the norm. Like it was just the way it was.
04:43
It's like when I lived in New York City, I had a girlfriend born in Japan and spent some years there, but her family emigrated to the country like when she was still fairly young, so she grew up in American culture, but she and I were talking about dating and how We'll just didn't we were just swapping more stories and things like that. And I remember, we were talking about how there's creepy men that just like they only date, like a certain kind of person, right? Like, it's like, I only date a, like, a fetishizing. Yeah. And I was like, you know, why was this? Why was this and she's like, you know, she, she said something I'll never forget, she said, You know what Amy? She said, Because when people see you, when they see me when they see us, they don't see us. First. They see our race first, then they see us. When I see a white person, I don't say, I'm gonna try to I'm thinking maybe Dutch, their mannerisms are very, you know, German, I don't know, people of color. Don't do that. We don't do that. White people don't do that to each other. But they're still like, before we open our mouth, because we were our difference. I'm going to run that layer through the filters of the stereotypes that I know that I have learned, I'm going to process you through these filters. And those filters are Asian, speaks another language has an Asian family. Probably really smart. Maybe she was an accountant. But she was right. She was like, they don't see you. They see your Asian Enos. That's what she said, she goes, they see your Asian as first AMI, and then they see you, and then they see you. And that stuck with me. Because that will never change. I will always in their eyes. That's who I will be first. In high school. There'll be a handful of situations where, again, all my friends were white. And whenever the topic did come up, for whatever reason, and somebody called it out, like, Oh, you're white, whatever, then they would all look at me like, oh, and it was kind of like that. We forgot it. She's she's not white, we forgot that she's not white. So I do want to even better. My last relationship. We were going to eat ramen. My ex was still is that I'm aware of YT. Last time I checked, and we were standing in line, he made a joke. And he was like, why is this long line so long? He's like, don't people know like, we're white. Like, we need to get to the front of the line. You're kidding me? Wait, it gets better. He's like, what? He's like, da, we're white. Why are we standing in line. But the beyond the surface of that being all kinds of offensive, it was the word we're,
Shawna 07:53
oh my God, my mouth is open, y'all. You can't even see me. But I'm like,
07:58
what? We're white. And even after, you know, sometimes somebody will say something. And the minute it comes out of their mouth, they catch it, he still didn't catch it. And I was waiting, counting 123 Nope. And I was like, He's not gonna, he's not gonna say anything. So I finally looked at him. And I was like, well, one of us is white. And one of us is not. And he looks at me without skipping a beat. And he said, Well, I mean, you're white enough. You count. Wow.
Shawna 08:36
Okay, but did you address the other thing? I mean, did you address it?
08:39
Were Wait, and we shouldn't be standing in line or those? We're,
Shawna 08:42
I mean, you addressed the we're, but did you address
08:47
I addressed at all? And he had this way is our joke. Oh, of course, that was the first words that he's like, come down to joke, you know, you know, I'm not that. I'm like, wow, it went beyond being hurt and angry. It was like, I am in a relationship with a man who thinks this way about me. I'm in love with a man who thinks this way about me. He thinks
Shawna 09:14
I'm white enough. And is that why he's with me? And as such together, we enjoy this privilege.
09:21
If you're with me, you're always gonna have like, get a pass. You know? Because if I see you as white, and everybody else does, too.
Shawna 09:30
Yeah, well, that's what they call proximity to whiteness, right? And it can come in different forms. Because you looked maybe wide enough for me, you can kind of pass you get the ticket because you're on the arm of somebody who is white or but it was
09:47
them having to tell you you have that though.
Shawna 09:51
Right. Congratulations. And as such you get to yes. Well, mostly, it's kind of until you
09:58
totally get the past six card holder, you know, your your guess
10:02
kind of like, kind of like a
Shawna 10:03
pool pass? Yeah, like think of this metaphor, okay, like so you know if you if you live in a place where there's like an HOA or some sort of community where you get like there's a pool, right? So you get this pass because you're a resident, but you are allowed to have guests, you're issued 70 guest passes in the season, right? Yeah. So here I come as a guest, I'm still in the space, I'm invited to the space. But I'm not a permanent member.
10:29
You don't have any power. You're granted no access, you're not extended the same privileges? Yeah,
Shawna 10:35
I'm gonna get some of the same privileges. But temporarily, I get to hang for a minute. I get to be there for a day or whatever. But I'm not fully in the club. Yeah, I'm gonna be like processing that for a minute, just off so many wrong things.
10:49
And he said it like, like, you should be laughing. Hahaha, like, isn't like, why are you laughing like this, like you my
Shawna 10:55
damn guest pass back? Wow, that is just so messed up. So let's just kind of hang here for a minute in a stainless space for a moment. So as you navigate white spaces, and you do the things you did, well, here, here's what I heard growing up, not so much now. Because you know, people know what they're supposed to say or ask or not say and ask whatever. But I grew up being told that I sounded white. Oh, that's a big one. Or like, whatever. That was also code for?
11:28
Why are you not white? Why are you not white? That was like, when my ex husband was still in the military. And we move. And at that time, I was working. I was working retail. But I was like management and retail. Right? So at that time, I was like, hey, it'd be cool if I could keep this job. Because as we some of us know, like, if you are the spouse of an active duty military person, like that is a struggle and a challenge. Right? So I knew that there was they had this thing where you could like transfer stores, right? And they as long as you know, you were in good standing in the store needing people then yeah, great. So I found out that there was a location that I could, they had an opening and they were like, Yeah, happy to take me. So the woman's name, who was my manager would be would soon to be my manager. Her name was Carolyn. Carolyn was a middle aged white woman. My name is Amy Daniels, Amy Daniels. It's not Kim. When or Chan. It's not something that will just help them. You know, sort of, okay, I know. I know. I know who I'm about to meet. So I show up on the first day, this before the internet days, so she wasn't stalking your LinkedIn or anything. And I showed up, and I think she saw ghosts like it, she literally it was so difficult for her to hide just the shock. This pure shock on her face was like, this is very disruptive. Like, this is not what I was expecting. But instead of just letting the visual facial expressions be her dead giveaway, right? Most people would do that home in polite company would try very hard to not visually like look shaken. But that's where they're going to end it. They're not going to say anything, because they've already like, somehow struggled by not hiding it. Oh, no. She
Shawna 13:36
sees me, which is add another micro aggression to this encounter. Oh, this
13:40
was not even a micro this was a straight up aggression like this before the velvet punch. So I show up and she's visibly shaken. And then she's like, well, you're not at all what I was expecting. I mean, I was speechless at that point. I'm about I'm like, I do I need this job. How much should? I said, Well, I'm not sure what you were expecting. And she's like, well, with a name like Amy Daniels. I certainly wasn't expecting this. I thought I would. I would see little white girl with like blonde hairs. That? Yes.
14:17
She actually said that.
14:19
She actually said it now. And I've thought of Carolyn often over the years. And I think to myself, I wonder how Carolyn has changed because Tibet going back bringing it full circle now. She probably went through that hole. Okay, these are the things I'm not allowed to say anymore. Right. But in 1994 This was before that. Me too. And, you know, you still could say things like you're not what I was expecting. You could still get away with that in parts of the south. But now I wonder how has Carolyn's communication style changed since then? You know, would she in this day and age if she was still work and if she's still working,
Shawna 15:02
what would she say? What coded language? Would she use?
15:05
What coded language? Which, what? Yes, or how she figured it out. And I sometimes wonder, like, when she saw everything unfold two years ago, did she kind of reflect and think, when there have been times where I have said or done something so stupid? Probably not? Because I think if you're saying something like that on the regular, I don't even know if that's like an exception. Do you know what it means? I know
15:27
what you mean. And and as I contemplate Carolyn, who I do not know,
Shawna 15:32
I think about, you know, I'm in, I'm in the work of diversity, equity and inclusion, I'm trained. And I often tell people like these are things to avoid saying, These are the no no's. And here's why. And there's a lot of stuff that people don't even know the history of, and why it's wrong or offensive. You know, one of the examples I give is about the term the grandfather clause, and people will say, like, oh, they were grandfathered. And they don't know where that comes from. Well, the fact is that it had to do with when voting laws were changed, and, you know, white folks wanted to restrict black voting. And so basically, what they would say is, okay, well, if your grandfather was someone that was allowed to vote prior to this time, then you could vote. Right. So what does that do? It sets you up for these restrictions that are being placed. But there's other terms, you know, like, I watch HGTV, and you hear people talk about main bedroom and primary bedroom now instead of masterbedroom. Because that's related to slavery, right? So, yeah, these things have a history, we just don't always look into them.
16:38
Let me ask you something about though, on this topic, how would you approach somebody now that use that term? If you knew like, No, I know that this person, I know that the topics around diversity inclusion, are as important to them as they are to me, right? We are of the same school of thought, but they use a term to your point where they don't understand the history, or the meaning behind? What is the approach you would take? Would it be developed with punch? Or use something more direct? Or maybe even more soft? Like? Yeah,
Shawna 17:15
oh, kinda like you what you said, it all depends on context, like, is this a person who's in the same frame of mind as me and works with me regularly? Or is this somebody that I really don't know? You know, sometimes I might do a very subtle thing like word substitution in order to model something, right? That would be a little bit of the velvet punch. Let's say for example, they used the word gypped. Or, you know, Gypsy, you know, people don't really know, that is an insult, particularly aimed at people from reminding culture. And if they don't know that, you know, I might say something like, Well, you know, sometimes people do feel cheated whenever and then blah, blah, blah, just use some sort of definition or word to substitute that. So I'm modeling, what should be used, instead of saying the offensive term, especially if it's in front of other people, right? I don't want to cause embarrassment or have someone connect embarrassment to a learning
18:10
context again, exactly, right context, right. So
Shawna 18:14
if it's just me and this person, I've, I might like, Hey, did you know where that word came from? And then I would kind of give the history and then they might be like, Oh, my God, I didn't even know. Right? And I experienced this. It was sort of a situation where I was learning a gender neutral term. I was talking about my family factor. I was talking about my nieces and nephews, specifically, the person I was talking to about this said something along the lines of Yeah, I I'm an auntie too and I enjoy my nibbling nibbling so much new for me. I mean, just because I am in di doesn't mean I know everything right? Like exactly things all the time. So she said, that's an I was like, nibbling. So it's a word that's more gender neutral because it's like siblings, right? It's the niece and nephew, but of your sibling or the children of your siblings. So you take the word sibling, which is also gender neutral, right? You're not saying sister brother, you're saying siblings. Right? Right. So yeah, so that's what a nibbling is. But I had never heard this word before. The person is somebody that I speak with regularly. We're definitely in same line of work. And it was just the two of us. But rather than say something like, you know, Shana, like you could use this one word now it'd be so much more inclusive. She modeled it, right. Like I talked about my siblings to which prompted me to say, nibbling, you know,
19:33
which you have to assume that people are paying attention though, when you're modeling that behavior.
Shawna 19:38
I mean, it's very possible I wouldn't have caught it. You know, we have that relationship. And to be honest, I did ask her about it. I I didn't go like way way
19:46
way back up. Back up.
Shawna 19:47
I was more like, let me look this up myself before I look foolish because we also want to save face like nobody wants to feel like oh my god, I just said the wrong thing. You know, oh my god, I'm a Dei. Professional, I didn't know this, you know, we have expectations for ourselves or, you know, we're afraid of what other expectations people have for us. But then, you know, if you like, drop these little seeds, or say something in, you know, in a way that you can model it, you know, sometimes it can be more direct, hey, you know where this came from. So I'd probably be more direct, if someone was, you know, saying a slur, or language that is truly harmful versus just, you know, kind of making a shift here and there to be more inclusive.
20:30
Yes, it happens all the time. And to your point, I do it, and we all do it. We're all constantly evolving and learning. But the one that still I get it, no matter who I talk to about this, unless you are another Asian person doesn't necessarily understand is when I'm called Kim Elia names. This situation typically happens when somebody has just met me. They don't know anything about me. And they will then direct a question or a conversation to me, where they have to use my name. And they will call me, Kim, instead of Amy. And I've already introduced myself. Yeah, I used to try to like explain it away, like, oh, maybe they know somebody whose name is Kim. And they look like me. I mean, all kinds of, but when it started to happen on a regular basis, in every kind of context and scenario, you can't sit there anymore, and come up with reasons as to why that might have happened. So after it happened, you know, I don't know how many hundreds of times. I exaggerate. But it's it was, it's been my whole life. I started to ask people why, you know, I'm just because I was curious, because I knew it was conscious or subconscious, right.
Shawna 21:51
Like, it wasn't like, they're sitting there like, I'm about to call her Kim.
21:54
Right. But see, here's the thing. There's truth in it, because, um, it's not unusual to have that name. It's a common last name in Korea. Right. But it's just this connection point. Well, you're I see you, you're Asian. I don't remember your name. I think it was like Kim. And sometimes it's not even that much thought that's put into it. It's just like, oh, you know, like Kim was saying, or it's like, what was her name? Oh, that girl over there. Kim. I've actually had people call me like, Kim Kim. And I know I can hear them. My hearing is fine. I know. They're calling me Kim. But I don't acknowledge them. And then they will come over and like, get closer. It's like, oh, did you hear me calling your name Kim? And I was like, no, because that's not my name. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Did I call you camp? I meant, what is your name? Again? I'm so sorry. It's Amy. Oh, my God. I don't know where that came from. And I want to say yeah, where did that come from? And the answers are across the board. Usually, it's the number one answer is I don't know. I honestly don't know. Other times, it's like, well, I really thought your name was Kim. And then I say, how many Kim's Do you know? Like, do you know a lot of Kim's like, do I look like a Kim that you might know? No. But it's like, you know, I'm just curious now, like weird. Why do you think you would have called me that? And it's it's very uncomfortable. Because they're like, why are we even having this conversation? Why does it matter? I made a mistake. Let's move on. And it's not. I used to think when it happened a lot when I was younger, it's like I wish if you are going to make a mistake, and call me something else, anything other than Kim, please anything other than Kim. Because I know what that means. Because you see, like my friend Jasco said, they see your Asian pneus first. See you. And then later in life as I got older, when I would ask people that they would come with what I mean, is when I would say Well, here's why. And they would they be like, really? That's odd because I would not have associated the name Kim with Asian people. I'm like, Huh. So how about Sue? Pat? Like no, Kim. I mean, it's not like I've done a step. Maybe that needs to be a study, I would put money on that the results you get are hypotheses would be proven.
Shawna 24:24
Yeah. So much here. Well, Amy, I know you know, you have had some marathon talks, and we can go on and on. But I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your time your stories. Because I know that as much as it seems like we're alone sometimes in our lived experiences. Other folks do really there are other people out here who have experienced these things. We are made to feel like we don't belong we don't fit in but we we do belong and we are not alone. So thank you so much. These conversations I think that they really mean a lot Folks who are like, Oh my God, that's exactly what I'm experiencing or something similar to that. So thank you for this.
25:06
Thank you for letting me share my stories and vent. She says we need a bit some time. This is my therapy. That's our talk therapy.
Shawna 25:13
Anything else you want to add? No?
25:15
No. Okay. Thank you.
Shawna 25:17
Well, thank you so much syrup. Take care.
Shawna 25:43
Well, y'all, as Amy said, that's a wrap, at least for this episode. Thanks so much for hanging out. As always, I invite you to write to me, send me your thoughts, your questions, and so on. And if you're interested in diversity, equity and inclusion, particularly how that can make a difference in your workplace or your interactions with folks. Hit me up. You can go to true colors. dei.com Find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, let's connect. In the meantime, be safe out there y'all share smile with somebody and when you have the opportunity, please try to make someone feel welcome. Love y'all. I'll be talking to you soon.
26:31
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